Indexed vs Friction Shifters
02-08-24, 11:42 AM
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Your response underscores the fundamental distinctions between your perspective and that of other vintage friction advocates. For the vast majority of modern cyclists, the bicycle serves as a tool to enhance their enjoyment of the sport, covering greater distances and providing comfort. Conversely, some individuals perceive their bicycles as an artistic and emotional expression, valuing it as a status symbol, regardless of performance, comfort, or practicality.
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02-08-24, 12:18 PM
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And my wise-*** comment. Index vs Friction Shifters. Like solid state vs tube amplifiers. Solid state is so much easier to use. (And so rugged. With a good cabinet, indestructible. I backed my car into a Peavy and it didn't care.) I love tube amps.
Really good friction shifting is a joy to ride. Yes, it takes a level of skill. Yes, it requires removing one's hand from the bars (for DT). Yes, it is completely obsolete and would be a several shot handicap in a race.
I am currently dismantling a Pro Miyata with lots of rust and putting most of those parts on another Pro M. Snazzing up parts as I go along. SunTour Symmetric shifters, Superbe FD (if it can handle triple, near new Cyclone GT rear. (Tried to put the GT cage on the Superbe but can't quite.) For a start, this will be the 52-42-30 X 13-26 Sedis/SRAM I've been using.
Only drawback to the wonderful shifting of those derailleurs and the Symmetric: on a pure race bike of early '80s clearances (like none at all!), that front tire is way too close to my index finger on my routine shift. A hard jam I feel in the bones every time I do it and that is nearly every ride. Not good for hands as old as mine and that are not going to relearn how towalk shift. So for last Sept's Cycle Oregon, I made an elegant wood shield that neatly zip ties below the DT. Love it! Barely notice it but those jarring jams don't happen!
That bike is totally old school. Skinny tires, dinosaur shifting, heavy enough to anchor an entire modern peloton. That CO had a day of riding the Willamette Valley. Miles of farm fields. North or west. Always along property boundaries. And all upwind. Every turn, shift a gear or two and settle in for the next few miles. But the bike simply disappeared. It was some of the most magic riding I have ever done. Like when all is right with that tube amp, the song and the other musicians.
Really good friction shifting is a joy to ride. Yes, it takes a level of skill. Yes, it requires removing one's hand from the bars (for DT). Yes, it is completely obsolete and would be a several shot handicap in a race.
I am currently dismantling a Pro Miyata with lots of rust and putting most of those parts on another Pro M. Snazzing up parts as I go along. SunTour Symmetric shifters, Superbe FD (if it can handle triple, near new Cyclone GT rear. (Tried to put the GT cage on the Superbe but can't quite.) For a start, this will be the 52-42-30 X 13-26 Sedis/SRAM I've been using.
Only drawback to the wonderful shifting of those derailleurs and the Symmetric: on a pure race bike of early '80s clearances (like none at all!), that front tire is way too close to my index finger on my routine shift. A hard jam I feel in the bones every time I do it and that is nearly every ride. Not good for hands as old as mine and that are not going to relearn how to
That bike is totally old school. Skinny tires, dinosaur shifting, heavy enough to anchor an entire modern peloton. That CO had a day of riding the Willamette Valley. Miles of farm fields. North or west. Always along property boundaries. And all upwind. Every turn, shift a gear or two and settle in for the next few miles. But the bike simply disappeared. It was some of the most magic riding I have ever done. Like when all is right with that tube amp, the song and the other musicians.
I would think that those who tour are the most blessed with those. Of course after all the blood and sweat that goes with it it is somewhat fitting that they experience what the less adventurous do not.
But of all those experiences, I highly doubt that the shifters really enhanced the moment.
I imagine an outsider to cycling would read this and scratch their head.
As an example, over 50 years ago, a buddy and I started way way early in the morning in search of some good surf. It was pretty crappy and overcast no matter where we stopped. Finally as we were running out of road we tired one last place we had never been to. It was down a cliff and as we walked to take a look, the heavens opened up, the sun came out, and the waves looked great. I have never forgotten that day or feeling.
The index/friction debate would be like someone asking me if I rode a short board or a longboard.
John
Last edited by 70sSanO; 02-08-24 at 12:21 PM.
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02-08-24, 02:18 PM
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02-08-24, 02:21 PM
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02-08-24, 02:30 PM
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02-08-24, 03:00 PM
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02-08-24, 03:20 PM
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02-08-24, 03:23 PM
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I apologize for the temporary thread jack. If a person has a jones on for steam locomotives, I highly recommend "The Train."
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059825/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059825/
02-08-24, 03:27 PM
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02-08-24, 06:31 PM
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Seriously, if you have some time to spare on a Labor Day weekend, the Western Minnesota Steam Thresher's Reunion in Rollag MN (https://rollag.com/) is a lot of fun.
02-08-24, 06:45 PM
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Oh, you misunderstand: I don’t worry. There are redundant and other safety features, and I know exactly what I’m doing. That’s why they’re fun! Why on earth would I want to rely on electronics for a system that has absolutely no need for them?
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02-08-24, 11:51 PM
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I have a colleague who is building a PDP-8 from discrete components. Because he can. He will spend many hours and a lot of money building it. Just so he can have a 1960's computer. The PC he is using in place of an old Teletype terminal is so much more computing power. I prefer to build stone tile floors.
But let's not kid ourselves. I have ridden a number of steam trains, including the "Jacobite" which covers about 40 miles from Fort WIlliam to Mallaig in about 2 hours, without needing to stop and fill up with water. I have also ridden on a TGV from Paris to Dijon (almost 200 miles) in an hour and forty minutes.
The Jacobite is very "cool". After all, it is the "Hogwarts Express". But the TGV is amazing. When two trains pass out in the open country side with a closing speed of over 350 MPH, the sensation of speed is beyond imagination. And I have never heard of the boiler on a TGV exploding...
02-09-24, 06:33 AM
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I think some people are just born into the wrong era for their interests. This was often said of the late Fred Dibnah, who was basically a Victorian engineer awkwardly inserted into the 20th Century. He was a big fanatic of steam engines and I’m sure DT friction shifters would have excited him too!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Dibnah
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Dibnah
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02-09-24, 08:00 AM
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But let's not kid ourselves. You have "ridden" some trains. You've never operated a locomotive, old or new. That's clear from your "praise" about not needing to "stop and fill up with water."
02-09-24, 09:25 AM
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Who would've guessed that a discussion starting out at friction shifting would end up at exploding steam locomotives. You never can tell....
I did get to see Union Pacific Challenger 3985 up close once - that was something..
I did get to see Union Pacific Challenger 3985 up close once - that was something..
Last edited by 13ollocks; 02-09-24 at 09:32 AM.
02-09-24, 09:26 AM
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I think denial about the possibility of catastrophic failure is silly. Yes, steam locomotives are magnificent machines! Running them must be amazing - I know the training locomotive engineers had to undergo BITD was astonishingly in-depth and detailed, and the vast majority of the time, the locomotives ran safely with not a hint of danger. But the potential for catastrophe is always there. Even if you do everything right - my Great grandfather died after another engine missed a signal and sideswiped his locomotive, tearing open a steam pipe and scalding him fatally. Not his fault - the PRR paid my Great Grandmother a pretty damn big settlement, for 1920!
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02-09-24, 09:27 AM
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02-09-24, 09:49 AM
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It's fitting that you draw a parallel between locomotives and friction bicycle shifting, both having historical significance but now relegated to novelty or amusement. In my local cycling community, friction shifting is only spotted during casual gatherings or displayed as decor in our bicycle-themed coffee shop. While they evoke nostalgia, they no longer hold a functional role in modern cycling, similar to how steam locomotives have become obsolete in rail transport.
The notion that friction shifting is prevalent or suitable for touring cyclists is also specious. Personally touring 6 to 8 weeks annually, I abandoned friction shifting decades ago. Similarly, the touring cyclists I meet on the road overwhelmingly opt for index shifters due to their reliability and global parts availability. The argument for friction shifting seems niche, perhaps for extreme long-distance riders in less developed areas like Africa.
The notion that friction shifting is prevalent or suitable for touring cyclists is also specious. Personally touring 6 to 8 weeks annually, I abandoned friction shifting decades ago. Similarly, the touring cyclists I meet on the road overwhelmingly opt for index shifters due to their reliability and global parts availability. The argument for friction shifting seems niche, perhaps for extreme long-distance riders in less developed areas like Africa.
02-09-24, 09:51 AM
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02-09-24, 10:06 AM
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According to the National Transportation Safety Board, the last recorded steam locomotive firebox explosion occurred on June 16, 1995, on the Gettysburg Railroad near Gardners, Pennsylvania
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02-09-24, 10:08 AM
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02-09-24, 10:12 AM
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The NTSB also determined that poor maintenance of the locomotive, as well as inadequate training, were contributing factors to the accident. After the incident, much of the equipment from the Gettysburg Railroad was auctioned off, and the railroad stopped using steam locomotives for their excursions, opting to use diesel locomotives instead
That’s all I have. You can look up the rest
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02-09-24, 10:16 AM
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I'm not sure if there are more recent occurrences, but I do know it happened to the Gettysburg Railroad back in 1995. I'd ridden on that train only a year or so before, during my older son's "obsessed with steam engines" phase.
IIRC, the problem there was that the water gauge piping was clogged so it didn't give an accurate reading and the engineer and fireman didn't know it and didn't do any OTHER checks. The water fell below the crown sheet, which blew out, though not with a spectacular "boiler catapulting" explosion, and nobody died, IIRC. Except the locomotive, of course.
IIRC, the problem there was that the water gauge piping was clogged so it didn't give an accurate reading and the engineer and fireman didn't know it and didn't do any OTHER checks. The water fell below the crown sheet, which blew out, though not with a spectacular "boiler catapulting" explosion, and nobody died, IIRC. Except the locomotive, of course.
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02-09-24, 10:19 AM
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02-09-24, 10:21 AM
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