Paul Barnard

I didn't say or imply "prove it." It would seem that if the guy was enough of a menace to warrant jailing for nearly two years that in today's "connected" society there would be some video evidence of his behavior. I wanted to view any such evidence. Nothing more or less. I also asked if PA law specifically prohibited riding a bicycle without hands. Oddly the person who has the temerity to lecture me on informing myself was not informed enough to answer the question.

Best wishes with your anger!

downhillmaster

Maelochs

This is the greatest irony. Rather than making anything safer for anybody, he is giving drivers reasons to hate cyclists and to see them as enemies and obstacles. As i said above, i would hate to be the next cyclist down that road after that guy had gone down it a few times.

Plenty of constructive and effective ways to protest and to change law enforcement/law observance. Then there is this guy.

JoeyBike

No joke.

I know how to use The Google. Most claims are easily checked by me.

For example: Sitting on the couch a couple of nights ago watching TV, i saw a clip of President Trump explaining that the Russians invaded Afghanistan a few decades ago to stop terrorists from entering Russia (U.S.S.R back then?) through that country. I never really thought about it myself, and I had no clue really, so I picked up my phone and GOOGLED "Why did Russia invade Afghanistan?" Within three seconds I got the Top-10 results stating "Russia was trying to prop up the Communist government of Afghanistan that was losing it's hold on the country".

I am not picking on the Pres specifically. It is amazing that educated people, with Internet access at their fingertips (or an army of advisors), should have to wonder about almost anything or make ME look it up for them.

Maelochs

I think the issue here is that your question is asked with a tone disbelieving the people who have actually done the research. Your questions, and the quip about the unicycle, and the general tone of your posts comes off to many as, "You guys are simple and didn't even bother to think this through," when in fact You did not heave enough interest to do some basic research (There are links Actually Provided in the Thread) to learn a little background. When you call people out for being ignorant when you Know you are ignorant ... well, this happens.

if your questions had been asked purely to seek information, people would have answered you .. . and you wouldn't have made the "unicycle" quip. In fact, if you Really wanted to know, and not just argue, you would have followed the links, or googled the various cases.

Fact is, you just wanted to make a few subtly snarky digs. That is fine. You got your just desserts. And you Know all this. You can ask questions like "Oh, do I have to do research?" but you know what's up. None of us are stupid. So ... back you our regularly scheduled programming.

Paul Barnard

These were my initial questions.

It is often mentioned that he would have numerous cars stacked up behind him. Are there any videos that demonstrate this? Does PA bike law prohibit cyclists from riding with no hands on the bars?

Two simple questions. Before I asked them, I looked for the info. I read PA bike law and did not see that it expressly prohibited bicycling with no hands. I also surfed the videos in the links provided and never saw any vids that showed a lot of cars stacked up behind him.

I'll let y'all carry carry on with your creative reading and avoiding answering questions.

Rollfast

I saw it on Beavis and Butt-head once.

Come on. There are instructions in that wrinkly grey thing up top-a us.

Maelochs

Others have said that Smith admitted to and was convictred of flipping off an officer while blocking a line of cars. They might have done better research than youi---not hard to imagine.

Try Google next time.

https://triblive.com/local/westmorel...bicyclist-case Video of a Very long line of cars behind Smith. Yeah, you searched with great diligence. First entry on the page.

This is a separate conviction which speaks to Smith’s sparkling character: (https://triblive.com/local/westmorel...-judges-office)

“After a nonjury trial, David Smith, 58, was found guilty of one summary count of disorderly conduct and fined $300 for his actions at the Scottdale district court office. Staff claimed they were threatened during a two-minute confrontation with Smith in the building.

“Secretary Kristen Carson testified Smith came into the office minutes before it was to close for the day, appeared to hold a rock in his hand and during a brief exchange became agitated and made an obscenity-laced threat.”

If you had really cared about learning instead of waving your e-peen, you would have read that Smith was convicted of careless driving, not a bicycle-specific offense.
https://www.pennlive.com/news/2016/1...d_cop_the.html


“Smith, 57, of Greensburg, got into trouble with the law at 5:20 p.m. on April 10, 2015 after Trooper Robert Karinchak spotted a slow-moving line of 20 to 25 cars heading eastbound in the right lane on Route 30 in Hempfield Township. Karinchak pulled his cruiser into the left lane and spotted Smith riding his bike in the center of the right lane, blocking traffic.

“Ford Elliott cited the trooper's account of what happened next.

“As he passed Smith, Karinchak said, Smith "extended both arms up, taking his hands off his handlebars, and extended his middle fingers on both hands as he's driving down the highway."Karinchak said he pulled Smith over, explained why he had stopped him and let him go. Then, the trooper said, Smith promptly did it again, so he was cited for careless driving and fined the $25 by a district judge.

“’I filed the charge of careless driving because as he's operating on a heavily traveled, divided highway, one of the busiest highways in Westmoreland County...he removed his hands from the handlebars, which is his mechanism to steer," Karinchak explained. He said Smith couldn't have stopped his bike while riding like that, either.

“The state judges instead agreed with Karinchak that riding a bicycle on a four- to six-lane highway with your hands in the air is careless, at the very least.“

And here is another article you might have found if you had actually made any sort of search … which pretty obviously, you didn’t.

“Pennsylvania Bicyclist Charged With Seeking Insurance Windfall”
https://insurancenewsnet.com/oarticl...l#.XDKp5c17mUk

So … all your protestations come up Completely Empty, because a two-minute stretch at the computer yielded all this---PLUS the complete listing of bicycle laws in the state of Pennsylvania, which includes;
Ҥ 3506. Articles carried by operator.

No person operating a pedalcycle shall carry any package, bundle or article which prevents the driver from keeping at least one hand upon the handlebars.”

Any judge would interpret that as a cyclist needing to have at least one hand on the handlebars at all times … but it is moot, because that was never a legal issue.

Which you would have known, had you really searched and not just lied about searching.

https://www.dot.state.pa.us/public/Pu.../PUB%20380.pdf
https://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS...v=00.&chpt=033
https://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS...v=00.&chpt=035

Drillium Dude 

Have to disagree. In fact, on a two-lane country road I'd say a cyclist has the ability to impede traffic in a worse way if that cyclist is riding like the jailed doofus. Traffic is going to bottle up behind a guy so unpredictable that drivers can't even trust they can pass him in the oncoming lane without him swerving over towards them. If he were driving a car, possible contact in such an encounter would result in a fender-bender. Any contact with a cyclist is enough to send him/her to the pavement to meet anything from scrapes and broken bones to the dude with the scythe. His odds of continuing to ride this way without a major accident befalling him are getting pretty thin.

DD

Paul Barnard

Thank you.

Paul Barnard

I did search. As I touched on earlier in the thread it wasn't an exhaustive search, but it was a search. I find it odd that you found my two simple questions so troubling. I also find it odd that you would find a need to say I lied.

Paul Barnard

In my case I clicked on a few links before I asked the questions. Then there are times we don't feel like doing research at all before we ask questions. And that's okay. Right?

​​​​​​​

CB HI

Who in this thread was on that jury? Stop blowing smoke and show some real evidence that he actually violated the traffic law. They charged him with impeding, but cyclist are traffic and cannot impede if they are going a reasonable speed for a bicycle rider. The fact you have supported such charges makes you anti-cyclist from a motoring and cop point of view.

CB HI

The cyclist was jailed for months and the county could not get a psychiatrist on their dime to the jail for an evaluation. Maybe you believe the cyclist should be forced to pay for a court ordered evaluation.

CB HI

The Black Hawk cyclist were also demonized and hated. They were accused of making cycling bad for the good cyclist with their convictions. Yet their appeal all the way to the Colorado Supreme Court and the attention the legislators got made a huge improvement for cyclist and cycling law in Colorado.

The end result of this cyclist appeal may bring a similar result.

CB HI

So you are just trying to pretend there is a law to demonize another cyclist. So for you, if you cannot see why traffic slowed, motorist get to just start doing dumb things. The dumb motorist are the ones you should be demonizing.

Maelochs

Unironically and with no malice or sarcasm, you are welcome.

CB HI

That clearly written law does not mean you cannot take both hands off the handlebar. You and any judges that interpret it that way need to take some reading comprehension classes. Having items in your hands which prevent you from promptly putting you hands back on the handlebar is a big difference for riding a short bit with no hands.

If the law was intended to prohibit no hands riding, why put the words "carry any package, bundle or article which prevents". Maybe you believe lawmakers intentionally make laws unclear and add unneeded words to complicate the law.

Your assertions make no sense.

CB HI

And yet with all his internet skills, he still managed to read in meaning to the law that does not exist. The cops and DA likely did the same to make the law into what they wanted, not what the simple wording legislated.

Maelochs

@CB HI: You say, none of us were on that jury ... True. You weren't. You have no idea of what testimony was given, or what happened in that court room. None of us have anything but short clips and a few second-hand reports. I am sure the trial transcripts can be had, but none of us are willing to pay for them

So ... we will never know why that jury took six hours to deliberate, and to find Smith guilty on six counts ... and Not Guilty on two. it could be that they actually looked at evidence and made a determination based on the law ... as they are supposed to do. We don't know how biased any of them were or were not. We don't know if any of them cycled or did not, or hated cyclists, or what. So we make assumptions and condemn others for making different assumptions. Whatever.

I know for a fact the jury took six hours to examine eight charges and acquitted him of two.

As for the careless driving charge ... pretty obviously if you are riding in dense traffic with both hands in the air, you cannot stop the bike. That was the justification for the charge, and it makes complete sense. Ride no hands if you like, when there is no one around, ... he was riding with traffic passing in one lane and a long line of cars behind him. If he fell, he would be endangering himself and others. The charge of Careless Driving is perfectly justified.

An honest man might admit, if he was cycling in heavy traffic and a car came by, with the driver gesturing with both hands and not on the wheel, that that might be "careless driving" and a risk for the driver, oncoming traffic, and very much for the cyclist.

So ... until someone comes forth with the actual trial transcript, based on all the things I have seen on video ... I stand by my opinion of this man.

So ... does any one have any evidence showing that this man did Not do any of the things for which he was convicted? If not . .. we are all just arguing our assumptions, which is pretty silly.

GamblerGORD53

So, here is post #72 and I told y'all in #6 , I figured out the truth about this bozo-ona-bike, with one video evidence. And correctly assumed the insurance scam angle.
The LEO video of the line-up shows him putting along at 4 mph WITHOUT pedaling. I also see police lights flashing in the distance to stop opposing traffic, while the camera car passes in a no pass zone. And yet CB HI can't agree this is OBSTRUCTION. LOL
I gather that the 2 charges dropped were the ones from stalking the police station at 2:20 AM.
CB HI obviously likes playing the victim card.

And you can't hang onto handlebars that a unicycle doesn't have. LOL
I doubt any state laws neglect to mention no-hands tom-foolery.

Paul Barnard

For the sake of discussion, at what point in this scenario did Smith's actions become illegal?

https://triblive.com/local/westmorel...bicyclist-case


Before anyone jumps to any conclusions about my supporting his actions, I'll come right out and say that I don't. If I have a single vehicle hung up behind me I will work to get them around me. Jackholes like him give us all a bad name. But what law did he break and at what point was that law broken?

Sometimes my questions are asked to build into a conversation, not to wave an "E-Peen." I think this is an important discussion for us to have. In talking to motorists, they seem to think that if they have to slow for a cyclist at all they have been obstructed. We have read about cyclists being charged for obstruction. That begs the question of when the legal presence of a cyclist becomes illegal.

Paul Barnard

I

Again, I am not supporting his actions but let's get into the weeds of the law for a minute.

If his actions were dangerous in that he couldn't stop his bike quickly if he needed to, let's examine that. A bicyclist who has his hands in the air can get his hands on the brakes in ____ amount of time. At 10 MPH he will have advanced ______ feet in that time. A motorist who has his foot on the gas can get that foot on the brake in _____ amount of time. At 60 MPH they will have advanced _____ feet in that time.

Lemond1985

PA Vehicle Code Section 3301(c)? Looks like he is supposed ride as far to the right as practicable, unless the road conditions require him to move left. Plus I think threatening court staff with a rock was probably a crime too, but I'm not gonna bother to look that one up.

Paul Barnard

I know you said you were bailing on the conversation, but I will reply in case anyone wants to pick up where you left off. In the video in the link I posted, I would think the below part of the law, which is an exception to riding far right, would allow Smith to be where he was in the lane. He was charged with obstructing traffic, so at some point in the scenario his legal presence became illegal, and that's what I'd like to explore.


A pedalcycle using a roadway that has a width of not more than one lane of traffic in each direction.