First time getting dropped on a group ride, hit the wall right after.
11-22-19, 07:54 AM
#26
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World champion pursuit teams on track cannot maintain spacing that tight. At world championship level they strive to be even tighter but maintaining it a full four minutes is seldom possible. At the 16-19mph in the OP's story drafting is meaningless. Drafting tight is just a waste of mental energy. And dangerous if someone is starting to bonk.
You know 30cm is 1 foot, right? This is not a dangerous or difficult spacing to maintain for even marginally trained cyclists, if you have the least amount of trust in the other people in your group. Teams who train together (TTT OR team pursuit) not only easily maintain 30 cm, but often overlap, esp. if there is a crosswind.
11-22-19, 09:37 AM
#27
Senior Member
You know 30cm is 1 foot, right? This is not a dangerous or difficult spacing to maintain for even marginally trained cyclists, if you have the least amount of trust in the other people in your group. Teams who train together (TTT OR team pursuit) not only easily maintain 30 cm, but often overlap, esp. if there is a crosswind.
Sure riders overlap. Echelons in a crosswind are a basic skill. In a big crosswind inability to echelon selects lots of pros right out of contention.
Beginners should do what is comfortable, not what is prescribed. At 16-19mph the feeling of being part of the group may be important, precise spacing is not.
11-22-19, 09:40 AM
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Beginners should strive to be less beginner-y. ie. improvement. It may be difficult to hold a close draft at full gas, but if not racing, keeping in the draft means you don't have to hold your effort at full gas.
11-22-19, 01:20 PM
#29
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After watching videos of pursuit teams, next up in relevance to OP's situation would be watching how to blow a proper snot rocket.
Last edited by shelbyfv; 11-22-19 at 01:23 PM.
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11-22-19, 01:41 PM
#30
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Right of passage. Keep going back. If it's an absolute romping and you're off the back within a mile or two.......wrong group. If it's just at some point later in the ride.....keep trying. Learn. Gain skills.
You'll be fine.
Also, what's this 1 foot thing? That's a booze cruise. If people are pulling over threshold and you're recovering just under......hold the damn wheel. Or get yelled at. I will yell at you to close gaps larger than 3 feet on an A/A+ ride. That's nonsense. On a B, I'd say 3 feet is forgivable but more work. On a C? Who cares so long as you can stay straight and upright.
Oh yeah......it's also quite different to have the skills to hold less than a foot gap on a road bike versus on a TT bike. You're getting into a different world there.
I know maybe two people locally in a pretty populous area I'd trust to draft with me on TT bikes. Two. They're both fast enough I don't have to worry about ever being invited to do team time trial with those guys. I'm too slow.
You'll be fine.
Also, what's this 1 foot thing? That's a booze cruise. If people are pulling over threshold and you're recovering just under......hold the damn wheel. Or get yelled at. I will yell at you to close gaps larger than 3 feet on an A/A+ ride. That's nonsense. On a B, I'd say 3 feet is forgivable but more work. On a C? Who cares so long as you can stay straight and upright.
Oh yeah......it's also quite different to have the skills to hold less than a foot gap on a road bike versus on a TT bike. You're getting into a different world there.
I know maybe two people locally in a pretty populous area I'd trust to draft with me on TT bikes. Two. They're both fast enough I don't have to worry about ever being invited to do team time trial with those guys. I'm too slow.
11-22-19, 05:22 PM
#31
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Except for rare special fund raisers I only ride the LBS twice a week beginner rides. They start in March at about 11 mph and end up in Nov running at 14+. I guess that would be called a C-level? I salvage my ego by two methods. First I locate whoever is really new and nervous about keeping up and loudly declare they need not worry because I always bring up the rear by having a reservation for last place. If that doesn't seem to put everyone at ease I play the "I'm old" (69) card. And I carry spares and tool kit to allow the LBS (who know this of course) to focus on leading and training new riders. That way I only bonk or cramp on the rare times when I am stronger in the fall and invited to do a ride with a "new" B group.
WARNING: Twinkies are not enough!
WARNING: Twinkies are not enough!
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11-22-19, 05:25 PM
#32
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I guess I should mention that all of these rides have about 1200 ft of climbing. Maybe I'm not as slow as I think?
11-22-19, 11:19 PM
#33
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Probably not a blood sugar bonk. Sounds more like reaching your current anaerobic limit while the others were still in their aerobic zone. That can improve with fitness.
If your legs started out okay but after a few miles felt heavy or burning and then dead, that's probably lactate buildup from exceeding your personal current aerobic fitness. (Some dispute whether it's an anaerobic process, or simply fast twitch muscles making lactate as fuel faster than our slow twitch muscles can use it. Theories about the process keep evolving, but here's a fairly recent article on the most current theories.)
According to contemporary theories about how our bodies work, that lactate buildup is intended to be fuel. The body slows down back to our aerobic level and uses that fuel while recovering. You were probably recovering some during that final half hour and 3 mile ride before taking the bus. That's a good start. It's usually a good idea to continue riding easily after the legs feel cooked.
With training you can improve on that. It can take awhile, depending on age, health, genetics, diet, rest... all the usual stuff.
My aerobic capacity is pretty limited by too many bouts with pneumonia and other respiratory problems, aggravated by smoking (I quit 20 years ago but the damage was done). But I've been able to improve my aerobic capacity, handle longer bursts of anaerobic activity, and recover quicker between those bursts.
There are lots of training plans for improving conditioning, from brief and painful high intensity interval training, to longer interval sessions. I don't do true HIIT very often anymore, but try once a week to fit in a modified interval session on the indoor trainer that mimics the terrain for my outdoor rides -- roller coasters with lots of short, steep punchy climbs that most experienced riders treat as sprints. They wouldn't be able to sustain that effort for a real mountain climb, but can for the usual 30 second to maximum of 3 minutes it takes to crest most of our climbs.
One neighborhood not far from me is built on the naturally hilly terrain that often occurs even amid relatively flat Texas prairie and arroyos. Some of the punchy climbs are only 20-100 yards but well into double digit grades, over 10% (I measured some at 15% using an inclinometer). Off the beaten path for most cyclists but looking at Strava I see a few other folks do the same thing and tackle that route once or twice a month, in addition to the more gradual roller coaster terrain with lots of 1/8 to 1/4 mile hillettes in the 3%-6% range.
Most of my indoor trainer sessions are done while watching TV or movies, with a long Zone 1 warmup (at least 30 minutes) before transitioning into 5 minute sessions in the hardest gear I can mash at 50-60 rpm, feeling near burnout at the end of 5 minutes -- I want my legs to feel heavy, burning and dead. Sometimes I'll stand to pedal for anywhere from a minute to 5 minutes to work the leg muscles harder. Then I'll shift down to an easier gear to spin at 80-100 rpm maintaining the same wheel speed, for 15-20 minutes. Then back to the 5 minute harder effort, and repeat about three times. Then a gradual cool down.
And I try to always follow up any leg exercise -- riding, walking, squats, lunges, etc. -- with rollers and massage. My legs consistently feel fresher the next time. If I skip the roller massage my legs usually feel sluggish the next time.
Works for me. I've had fewer outdoor rides the past month due to chronic sinus and upper respiratory stuff, so I avoid rides in temps under 40 degrees. But I'm doing better on the hilly routes our group rides take. Last week I even spun up a climb faster than a couple of fellows who usually beat me to the top -- but I'm pretty sure both of those guys were also a bit under the weather, between flu, colds or sinus infections.
At 62 I'm never gonna be one of the fast kids, but I've improved from dead last on every Strava climbing segment three years ago to middle of the pack on most and upper third on other popular climbs. I've cracked the top ten on a handful of obscure climbs but that's mostly because relatively few serious cyclists ride those climbs. They're tough climbs (by our modest local standards) but off the usual training routes. If all the usual folks rode those climbs I'd drop down to the middle of pack.
If your legs started out okay but after a few miles felt heavy or burning and then dead, that's probably lactate buildup from exceeding your personal current aerobic fitness. (Some dispute whether it's an anaerobic process, or simply fast twitch muscles making lactate as fuel faster than our slow twitch muscles can use it. Theories about the process keep evolving, but here's a fairly recent article on the most current theories.)
According to contemporary theories about how our bodies work, that lactate buildup is intended to be fuel. The body slows down back to our aerobic level and uses that fuel while recovering. You were probably recovering some during that final half hour and 3 mile ride before taking the bus. That's a good start. It's usually a good idea to continue riding easily after the legs feel cooked.
With training you can improve on that. It can take awhile, depending on age, health, genetics, diet, rest... all the usual stuff.
My aerobic capacity is pretty limited by too many bouts with pneumonia and other respiratory problems, aggravated by smoking (I quit 20 years ago but the damage was done). But I've been able to improve my aerobic capacity, handle longer bursts of anaerobic activity, and recover quicker between those bursts.
There are lots of training plans for improving conditioning, from brief and painful high intensity interval training, to longer interval sessions. I don't do true HIIT very often anymore, but try once a week to fit in a modified interval session on the indoor trainer that mimics the terrain for my outdoor rides -- roller coasters with lots of short, steep punchy climbs that most experienced riders treat as sprints. They wouldn't be able to sustain that effort for a real mountain climb, but can for the usual 30 second to maximum of 3 minutes it takes to crest most of our climbs.
One neighborhood not far from me is built on the naturally hilly terrain that often occurs even amid relatively flat Texas prairie and arroyos. Some of the punchy climbs are only 20-100 yards but well into double digit grades, over 10% (I measured some at 15% using an inclinometer). Off the beaten path for most cyclists but looking at Strava I see a few other folks do the same thing and tackle that route once or twice a month, in addition to the more gradual roller coaster terrain with lots of 1/8 to 1/4 mile hillettes in the 3%-6% range.
Most of my indoor trainer sessions are done while watching TV or movies, with a long Zone 1 warmup (at least 30 minutes) before transitioning into 5 minute sessions in the hardest gear I can mash at 50-60 rpm, feeling near burnout at the end of 5 minutes -- I want my legs to feel heavy, burning and dead. Sometimes I'll stand to pedal for anywhere from a minute to 5 minutes to work the leg muscles harder. Then I'll shift down to an easier gear to spin at 80-100 rpm maintaining the same wheel speed, for 15-20 minutes. Then back to the 5 minute harder effort, and repeat about three times. Then a gradual cool down.
And I try to always follow up any leg exercise -- riding, walking, squats, lunges, etc. -- with rollers and massage. My legs consistently feel fresher the next time. If I skip the roller massage my legs usually feel sluggish the next time.
Works for me. I've had fewer outdoor rides the past month due to chronic sinus and upper respiratory stuff, so I avoid rides in temps under 40 degrees. But I'm doing better on the hilly routes our group rides take. Last week I even spun up a climb faster than a couple of fellows who usually beat me to the top -- but I'm pretty sure both of those guys were also a bit under the weather, between flu, colds or sinus infections.
At 62 I'm never gonna be one of the fast kids, but I've improved from dead last on every Strava climbing segment three years ago to middle of the pack on most and upper third on other popular climbs. I've cracked the top ten on a handful of obscure climbs but that's mostly because relatively few serious cyclists ride those climbs. They're tough climbs (by our modest local standards) but off the usual training routes. If all the usual folks rode those climbs I'd drop down to the middle of pack.
11-23-19, 04:25 AM
#34
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Probably not a blood sugar bonk. Sounds more like reaching your current anaerobic limit while the others were still in their aerobic zone. That can improve with fitness.
If your legs started out okay but after a few miles felt heavy or burning and then dead, that's probably lactate buildup from exceeding your personal current aerobic fitness. (Some dispute whether it's an anaerobic process, or simply fast twitch muscles making lactate as fuel faster than our slow twitch muscles can use it. Theories about the process keep evolving, but here's a fairly recent article on the most current theories.)
According to contemporary theories about how our bodies work, that lactate buildup is intended to be fuel. The body slows down back to our aerobic level and uses that fuel while recovering. You were probably recovering some during that final half hour and 3 mile ride before taking the bus. That's a good start. It's usually a good idea to continue riding easily after the legs feel cooked.
With training you can improve on that. It can take awhile, depending on age, health, genetics, diet, rest... all the usual stuff.
My aerobic capacity is pretty limited by too many bouts with pneumonia and other respiratory problems, aggravated by smoking (I quit 20 years ago but the damage was done). But I've been able to improve my aerobic capacity, handle longer bursts of anaerobic activity, and recover quicker between those bursts.
There are lots of training plans for improving conditioning, from brief and painful high intensity interval training, to longer interval sessions. I don't do true HIIT very often anymore, but try once a week to fit in a modified interval session on the indoor trainer that mimics the terrain for my outdoor rides -- roller coasters with lots of short, steep punchy climbs that most experienced riders treat as sprints. They wouldn't be able to sustain that effort for a real mountain climb, but can for the usual 30 second to maximum of 3 minutes it takes to crest most of our climbs.
One neighborhood not far from me is built on the naturally hilly terrain that often occurs even amid relatively flat Texas prairie and arroyos. Some of the punchy climbs are only 20-100 yards but well into double digit grades, over 10% (I measured some at 15% using an inclinometer). Off the beaten path for most cyclists but looking at Strava I see a few other folks do the same thing and tackle that route once or twice a month, in addition to the more gradual roller coaster terrain with lots of 1/8 to 1/4 mile hillettes in the 3%-6% range.
Most of my indoor trainer sessions are done while watching TV or movies, with a long Zone 1 warmup (at least 30 minutes) before transitioning into 5 minute sessions in the hardest gear I can mash at 50-60 rpm, feeling near burnout at the end of 5 minutes -- I want my legs to feel heavy, burning and dead. Sometimes I'll stand to pedal for anywhere from a minute to 5 minutes to work the leg muscles harder. Then I'll shift down to an easier gear to spin at 80-100 rpm maintaining the same wheel speed, for 15-20 minutes. Then back to the 5 minute harder effort, and repeat about three times. Then a gradual cool down.
And I try to always follow up any leg exercise -- riding, walking, squats, lunges, etc. -- with rollers and massage. My legs consistently feel fresher the next time. If I skip the roller massage my legs usually feel sluggish the next time.
Works for me. I've had fewer outdoor rides the past month due to chronic sinus and upper respiratory stuff, so I avoid rides in temps under 40 degrees. But I'm doing better on the hilly routes our group rides take. Last week I even spun up a climb faster than a couple of fellows who usually beat me to the top -- but I'm pretty sure both of those guys were also a bit under the weather, between flu, colds or sinus infections.
At 62 I'm never gonna be one of the fast kids, but I've improved from dead last on every Strava climbing segment three years ago to middle of the pack on most and upper third on other popular climbs. I've cracked the top ten on a handful of obscure climbs but that's mostly because relatively few serious cyclists ride those climbs. They're tough climbs (by our modest local standards) but off the usual training routes. If all the usual folks rode those climbs I'd drop down to the middle of pack.
If your legs started out okay but after a few miles felt heavy or burning and then dead, that's probably lactate buildup from exceeding your personal current aerobic fitness. (Some dispute whether it's an anaerobic process, or simply fast twitch muscles making lactate as fuel faster than our slow twitch muscles can use it. Theories about the process keep evolving, but here's a fairly recent article on the most current theories.)
According to contemporary theories about how our bodies work, that lactate buildup is intended to be fuel. The body slows down back to our aerobic level and uses that fuel while recovering. You were probably recovering some during that final half hour and 3 mile ride before taking the bus. That's a good start. It's usually a good idea to continue riding easily after the legs feel cooked.
With training you can improve on that. It can take awhile, depending on age, health, genetics, diet, rest... all the usual stuff.
My aerobic capacity is pretty limited by too many bouts with pneumonia and other respiratory problems, aggravated by smoking (I quit 20 years ago but the damage was done). But I've been able to improve my aerobic capacity, handle longer bursts of anaerobic activity, and recover quicker between those bursts.
There are lots of training plans for improving conditioning, from brief and painful high intensity interval training, to longer interval sessions. I don't do true HIIT very often anymore, but try once a week to fit in a modified interval session on the indoor trainer that mimics the terrain for my outdoor rides -- roller coasters with lots of short, steep punchy climbs that most experienced riders treat as sprints. They wouldn't be able to sustain that effort for a real mountain climb, but can for the usual 30 second to maximum of 3 minutes it takes to crest most of our climbs.
One neighborhood not far from me is built on the naturally hilly terrain that often occurs even amid relatively flat Texas prairie and arroyos. Some of the punchy climbs are only 20-100 yards but well into double digit grades, over 10% (I measured some at 15% using an inclinometer). Off the beaten path for most cyclists but looking at Strava I see a few other folks do the same thing and tackle that route once or twice a month, in addition to the more gradual roller coaster terrain with lots of 1/8 to 1/4 mile hillettes in the 3%-6% range.
Most of my indoor trainer sessions are done while watching TV or movies, with a long Zone 1 warmup (at least 30 minutes) before transitioning into 5 minute sessions in the hardest gear I can mash at 50-60 rpm, feeling near burnout at the end of 5 minutes -- I want my legs to feel heavy, burning and dead. Sometimes I'll stand to pedal for anywhere from a minute to 5 minutes to work the leg muscles harder. Then I'll shift down to an easier gear to spin at 80-100 rpm maintaining the same wheel speed, for 15-20 minutes. Then back to the 5 minute harder effort, and repeat about three times. Then a gradual cool down.
And I try to always follow up any leg exercise -- riding, walking, squats, lunges, etc. -- with rollers and massage. My legs consistently feel fresher the next time. If I skip the roller massage my legs usually feel sluggish the next time.
Works for me. I've had fewer outdoor rides the past month due to chronic sinus and upper respiratory stuff, so I avoid rides in temps under 40 degrees. But I'm doing better on the hilly routes our group rides take. Last week I even spun up a climb faster than a couple of fellows who usually beat me to the top -- but I'm pretty sure both of those guys were also a bit under the weather, between flu, colds or sinus infections.
At 62 I'm never gonna be one of the fast kids, but I've improved from dead last on every Strava climbing segment three years ago to middle of the pack on most and upper third on other popular climbs. I've cracked the top ten on a handful of obscure climbs but that's mostly because relatively few serious cyclists ride those climbs. They're tough climbs (by our modest local standards) but off the usual training routes. If all the usual folks rode those climbs I'd drop down to the middle of pack.
11-23-19, 08:04 AM
#35
Senior Member
I just realized that the group ride I went to was the advanced group ride though they seemed very forgiving I would expect an advanced group ride to ride at 23 mph+. I found that there is also an Intermediate group.
The odd thing is how am I supposed to bonk within 20 miles of hard riding? I did a 5 mile ride to the train station early in the morning then took the train to the closest point from the meet up point and I realized I had just 50 minutes to ride 13/14 miles to the meetup before the 8 am deadline. I did like a 13.5 mile time trial and ended up with barely 5 minutes to spare. So that should have been a decent warm up before the group ride I assume. The group ride starts and in the first mile I feel strong and think I can handle this but by mile 3-4 I start feeling hopeless knowing I cannot sustain that pace for another 45-50 miles it soon started to feel like sprinting giving it my all by mile 5 and the harder I went the bigger the gap became. I was cooked by then, I felt like this was one of the biggest failures in cycling I had I even felt a bit ashamed to come back again to the same group ride. The weird thing is that I had been able to keep a 20 mph solo pace for 7 miles on some rides and this group ride was slower with me at the back of the pack and I still failed pretty bad, I would have expected at least 15 miles before I get dropped but 5 miles?
The odd thing is how am I supposed to bonk within 20 miles of hard riding? I did a 5 mile ride to the train station early in the morning then took the train to the closest point from the meet up point and I realized I had just 50 minutes to ride 13/14 miles to the meetup before the 8 am deadline. I did like a 13.5 mile time trial and ended up with barely 5 minutes to spare. So that should have been a decent warm up before the group ride I assume. The group ride starts and in the first mile I feel strong and think I can handle this but by mile 3-4 I start feeling hopeless knowing I cannot sustain that pace for another 45-50 miles it soon started to feel like sprinting giving it my all by mile 5 and the harder I went the bigger the gap became. I was cooked by then, I felt like this was one of the biggest failures in cycling I had I even felt a bit ashamed to come back again to the same group ride. The weird thing is that I had been able to keep a 20 mph solo pace for 7 miles on some rides and this group ride was slower with me at the back of the pack and I still failed pretty bad, I would have expected at least 15 miles before I get dropped but 5 miles?
Question asked and answered. You're not a regular top group rider, you did 18.5 miles of riding (13.5 of which was a sprint), followed by an A group ride 5 minutes after the sprint, and you're asking why you were dropped? Seriously?
11-23-19, 10:32 AM
#36
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The hazard of being a solo rider is you lose perspective. He was thinking of that as just a warm-up. Meantime, he joins a group that is just starting to expend energy.
11-23-19, 04:35 PM
#37
Me duelen las nalgas
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Interesting stuff, thanks for the advice. Would I benefit much by increasing my annual/monthly mileage? I am well on my way to 4,000 miles by the end of 2019 which is my personal best but seems like my performance has decreased since I was a first few months beginner. Since I started out in August 2016 with a single speed, I was already doing 15-16 mph avg solo rides for 50-60 miles within a couple of months, I even remember jumping on to a group ride that passed by me and holding on at 21 mph for about 8-9 miles without much sweat even doing a 30 mph sprint before I split from the group to exit the bike path to a road. Ever since I got a proper road bike in 2017, my speed has gradually decreased. Now I barely do 10-11 mph on these longer rides. I just find myself in disbelief that after seriously getting into cycling after 3 years that I'm slower than my beginner self.
Doesn't need to be expensive. I use a heart rate monitor, a 2012 era Wahoo sensor kit for my old iPhone 4s, and Wahoo Fitness for my indoor trainer sessions. Outdoors I use only the heart monitor. My heart rate varies a lot due to illness (thyroid disease) and medications (Sudafed for sinus congestion speeds it up; metoprolol slows it down), so it helps to track it over time against my performance.
The Elevate extension for Strava helps too. For now it's available for Chrome. I don't think it's available for Firefox at the moment. And it's not available for the app versions.
But if there's a persistent problem with low energy or strength that's unusual for your age, see a doctor. Occasional lapses are normal, especially seasonal stuff like colds and flu. Or if you don't get enough rest between hard workouts. Even young, fit athletes in their primes often get sick immediately after a competition or hard workout.
At 62 I need a lot more rest now. I took a full day off last week after the ride-my-age challenge on my birthday, which coincided with a metric century. Good ride, reasonable average speed (16 mph, which including my usual slow warmup and cool down for about 10 miles -- most of the ride averaged 17-18 mph), and I felt great afterward. Until the next morning, when I couldn't get out of bed. So the rest of the week I did moderate effort indoor trainer sessions, mostly to avoid the cold rainy weather.
I neglected my health for years, even though I knew I had an auto-immune disease that was wrecking my thyroid (Hashimoto's). It had gotten so bad and obvious that a woman I stopped to chatter with along the local MUP (a parrot was riding on her shoulder as she walked) said, directly but not unkindly, "You need to get your thyroid checked out." Turns out she's an internist. Presumably a damned good one, considering she could recognize the symptoms from a brief chat, despite a beard covering my golf-ball sized goiter. Alas, I was so busy at the time (looking after my mom, who had Alzheimer's and multiple other health problems) that I neglected my health until after she died.
By that time I was struggling just to get out of bed, let alone ride my bike. My performance on the bike had already been declining. I was getting slower and more easily tired, despite working out methodically. Turned out my thyroid wasn't thyroiding anymore and the goiter was a calcified mass with cancer. Surgery got it, no chemo needed. I get very good, if conservative, preventive/maintenance health care through the VA now. But it doesn't cover stuff like "Hey, I'm old and slow, can ya gimme some testosterone patches and HGH so I can enjoy a few more years of artificially induced youth, motivating me to ride beyond my ability so I'm more likely to crash and break these brittle bones?" I'd have to pay out of pocket for that kind of doctoring.
I'm back to the form I had in 2017 before the illness. But it took awhile. Younger folks would recover quicker.
But pay attention to your body. If you're working out methodically, including adequate rest and diet, and still declining in performance, see a doctor. Some stuff needs lab tests to identify.
12-04-19, 08:06 AM
#38
Senior Member
I have been dropped many times. I have also waited for other riders many times too.
The key is finding a group, maybe just a tad faster than you, that has the culture of doing the ride together. Wait at the intersections, tops of climbs or every 10 miles.
Unless they are just hammer heads, then I'd find a new group. Not cool to treat new members that way.
The key is finding a group, maybe just a tad faster than you, that has the culture of doing the ride together. Wait at the intersections, tops of climbs or every 10 miles.
Unless they are just hammer heads, then I'd find a new group. Not cool to treat new members that way.
