Lack of rear suspension frames with large triangle
#1
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Lack of rear suspension frames with large triangle
Is there a reason why frames with suspension and large triangle space aren't made anymore. Seems like suddenly after the only frame with proper rear rack Taut Terrain Panamericana got discontinued then other manufacturers also started to make frames with small triangles.
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A guess: Save money on material?
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To reduce inventory. A big lesson learned during the decade-long bike slump that was pre-covid.
A lower frame allows smaller riders. Larger riders just use a longer seatpost.
A lower frame allows smaller riders. Larger riders just use a longer seatpost.
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When it comes to full suspension bikes, it's just so much harder to separate the rear from the rest of the frame, while keeping it strong and safe.
Gone are the days of those weird experimental bikes like Specialized Big Hit, only to be copied into BSO bikes years after.
Gone are the days of those weird experimental bikes like Specialized Big Hit, only to be copied into BSO bikes years after.
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Probably because there aren't a lot of people demanding them that are willing to pay. Maybe at some later time, they'll be the trendy thing.
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Except that’s not the way that bike manufacturers work. The 2023 Rockhopper Comp comes in 5 sizes from small to XXlarge. The 2008 Rockhopper Comp came in 5 sizes from 15” to 23”. The frame selection is the same pre- and post-covid. Geometry has changed slightly from 2008 to 2023 but not significantly.
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Haven't heard of Tout Terrain before, but the Panamericana looks great. To bad finding a used one looks to be a challenge.
If the goal is to have a full suspension frame where the rack is directly attached to the front triangle, Reise & Muller have a few e-bikes like that. https://www.r-m.de/en-us/bikes/delite-models/
If the goal is just to have cargo mounted to a full suspension bike, Old Man Mountain makes racks that can attach to many full suspension bikes. Or you could look into saddlebags and handlebar bags. Or put the cargo into a box and lash the box to your handlebars and stem with a dead inner tube. Or find a Wal-Mart quality full suspension with a URT frame and horizontal dropouts, they will easily accept most standard rear racks if you get a set of extra long set of rack stays.
If you just want a full suspension with a larger front triangle, look into bikes from the 90's. Or talk to a framebuilder.
If the goal is to have a full suspension frame where the rack is directly attached to the front triangle, Reise & Muller have a few e-bikes like that. https://www.r-m.de/en-us/bikes/delite-models/
If the goal is just to have cargo mounted to a full suspension bike, Old Man Mountain makes racks that can attach to many full suspension bikes. Or you could look into saddlebags and handlebar bags. Or put the cargo into a box and lash the box to your handlebars and stem with a dead inner tube. Or find a Wal-Mart quality full suspension with a URT frame and horizontal dropouts, they will easily accept most standard rear racks if you get a set of extra long set of rack stays.
If you just want a full suspension with a larger front triangle, look into bikes from the 90's. Or talk to a framebuilder.
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Haven't heard of Tout Terrain before, but the Panamericana looks great. To bad finding a used one looks to be a challenge.
If the goal is to have a full suspension frame where the rack is directly attached to the front triangle, Reise & Muller have a few e-bikes like that. https://www.r-m.de/en-us/bikes/delite-models/
If the goal is just to have cargo mounted to a full suspension bike, Old Man Mountain makes racks that can attach to many full suspension bikes. Or you could look into saddlebags and handlebar bags. Or put the cargo into a box and lash the box to your handlebars and stem with a dead inner tube. Or find a Wal-Mart quality full suspension with a URT frame and horizontal dropouts, they will easily accept most standard rear racks if you get a set of extra long set of rack stays.
If you just want a full suspension with a larger front triangle, look into bikes from the 90's. Or talk to a framebuilder.
If the goal is to have a full suspension frame where the rack is directly attached to the front triangle, Reise & Muller have a few e-bikes like that. https://www.r-m.de/en-us/bikes/delite-models/
If the goal is just to have cargo mounted to a full suspension bike, Old Man Mountain makes racks that can attach to many full suspension bikes. Or you could look into saddlebags and handlebar bags. Or put the cargo into a box and lash the box to your handlebars and stem with a dead inner tube. Or find a Wal-Mart quality full suspension with a URT frame and horizontal dropouts, they will easily accept most standard rear racks if you get a set of extra long set of rack stays.
If you just want a full suspension with a larger front triangle, look into bikes from the 90's. Or talk to a framebuilder.
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There are plenty of seatpost mounted/ Brindle racks in the bikepacking space that could be sufficient for use on an FS bike
What is the goal/ intended use case? Or did you just see an uncommon design that appealed to you, and wondered why there weren't more like it?
The Panam is .... interesting. It looks very niche solution ,and like it probably weighs a ton.
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The reason is that it's a very poor idea to attach a cargo rack to the rear triangle of a full-suspension bike. Mounting a rack to the suspension increases what's known as unsprung weight; which leads to poor performance, and increased wear and tear on the suspension components.
To me it looks like too much of a servicing hassle for a touring bike. Does an off-road touring bike really need rear suspension? The market would suggest not.
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I guess the OP is looking for a frame -mounted rack, rear suspension, and an unobstructed, level Top Tube main triangle; off-the-shelf. That seems a very specific ask.
I could think of a couple ways to do this; classics GT's LTS and the first gen FSR designs come to mind, but the Pan Americana seems to really be doing it the hard way. If there is a specific benefit it provides or a condition it's trying to avoid, I just don't see it.
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Tome the whole idea of mounting a rack on the rear suspended portion of an F/S bike is obviously a bad idea. Everything in the bags will get shaken and stirred ... and the constantly shifting load will put huge repeated stresses on the rack, bags, and suspension.
On top of that the suspension would need to be adjust harder to carry the weight ... sure, a long-travel big-hit rear suspension can handle another 40 pounds, but the weight will still affect every movement ... and while the suspension is designed to soak up hits, it is Not designed to handle the lateral forces the shaking and shifting would apply, which would weaken the bearings.
The reason F/S bikes are designed as they are is because .... they are designed as F/S bikes, the purpose of which is to go downhill or over big obstacles easily. If you are touring on tough single-track .... trying to do two-foot drops on a fully loaded tourer .....
Most touring bikes, even bikes designed to tour off-road, are not designed with rear suspension because the real point of rear suspension is to take big hits, like jumps, or slamming logs you are trying to jump, or to take the stress of high-speed downhill.
If you are taking jumps on a loaded touring bike ... why? If you are trying to rise very fast down steep off-road downhills on a loaded tourer .... why? And if you are on a loaded touring bike, you aren't bunny-hopping logs at speed ....
If you ant a bike that is fast off-road, get an MTB. if you want to Tour off-road, get a gravel bike with a suspension fork.
if you want to carry more on the back of a F/S bike than can be safely carried in seat-post panniers .... you have probably chosen the wrong tool for the job.
F/S MTBs are designed to ridden off-road over challenging terrain. They are goo d at that. They are not good at fast road rides in pelotons of racing bikes .....
You are asking "Why doesn't my tank ride like my luxury car, and why doesn't my luxury car have tank tracks." Wrong tools for the jobs.
On top of that the suspension would need to be adjust harder to carry the weight ... sure, a long-travel big-hit rear suspension can handle another 40 pounds, but the weight will still affect every movement ... and while the suspension is designed to soak up hits, it is Not designed to handle the lateral forces the shaking and shifting would apply, which would weaken the bearings.
The reason F/S bikes are designed as they are is because .... they are designed as F/S bikes, the purpose of which is to go downhill or over big obstacles easily. If you are touring on tough single-track .... trying to do two-foot drops on a fully loaded tourer .....
Most touring bikes, even bikes designed to tour off-road, are not designed with rear suspension because the real point of rear suspension is to take big hits, like jumps, or slamming logs you are trying to jump, or to take the stress of high-speed downhill.
If you are taking jumps on a loaded touring bike ... why? If you are trying to rise very fast down steep off-road downhills on a loaded tourer .... why? And if you are on a loaded touring bike, you aren't bunny-hopping logs at speed ....
If you ant a bike that is fast off-road, get an MTB. if you want to Tour off-road, get a gravel bike with a suspension fork.
if you want to carry more on the back of a F/S bike than can be safely carried in seat-post panniers .... you have probably chosen the wrong tool for the job.
F/S MTBs are designed to ridden off-road over challenging terrain. They are goo d at that. They are not good at fast road rides in pelotons of racing bikes .....
You are asking "Why doesn't my tank ride like my luxury car, and why doesn't my luxury car have tank tracks." Wrong tools for the jobs.
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Obviously a niche within a niche. The market for this has to be tiny which I believe is the answer to the question in the OP.
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On top of that the suspension would need to be adjust harder to carry the weight ... sure, a long-travel big-hit rear suspension can handle another 40 pounds, but the weight will still affect every movement ... and while the suspension is designed to soak up hits, it is Not designed to handle the lateral forces the shaking and shifting would apply, which would weaken the bearings.
The reason F/S bikes are designed as they are is because .... they are designed as F/S bikes, the purpose of which is to go downhill or over big obstacles easily. If you are touring on tough single-track .... trying to do two-foot drops on a fully loaded tourer .....
Most touring bikes, even bikes designed to tour off-road, are not designed with rear suspension because the real point of rear suspension is to take big hits, like jumps, or slamming logs you are trying to jump, or to take the stress of high-speed downhill.
The rear suspension allows the wheel to push down into the ground and/or follow the ground more closely where a rigid bike would bounce over the same ground. The suspended bike will climb better and descend better even with a load.
If you are taking jumps on a loaded touring bike ... why? If you are trying to rise very fast down steep off-road downhills on a loaded tourer .... why? And if you are on a loaded touring bike, you aren't bunny-hopping logs at speed ....
If you ant a bike that is fast off-road, get an MTB. if you want to Tour off-road, get a gravel bike with a suspension fork.
F/S MTBs are designed to ridden off-road over challenging terrain. They are goo d at that. They are not good at fast road rides in pelotons of racing bikes .....
You are asking "Why doesn't my tank ride like my luxury car, and why doesn't my luxury car have tank tracks." Wrong tools for the jobs.
You are asking "Why doesn't my tank ride like my luxury car, and why doesn't my luxury car have tank tracks." Wrong tools for the jobs.
I’ve done 11 off-road tours here in Colorado. They are usually 3 day rides of about 60 to 120 miles. Most all of them have been on suspended bikes, either a soft tail or a full suspension bike, but I have done a few unsuspended off-road tours. It’s not something I relish doing again.
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I notice you don't have a F?S bike with a rack attached to teh rear triangle ... which is what this post was about.
A rack attached to the rear triangle---not the frame or seat post---would move with the suspension, with the wheel ... the frame and rider would move much less (hence suspension.)
Much as the stuff in the giant seat bag will get shaken ... they will be moving less and less violently than if they were attached to the wheel and swing arm.
I do not know of a manufacturer who makes racks to attach to F/S swing arms ... which is the point of the post. I think no one does it because it is not a good idea.
The one bike you show with a rear rack---maybe one of those Ti Moots with a flex-joint or whatever ... I notice the rack is empty and the load is in the seat bag. The other doesn't even have a rack (though the triangle" (swing arm) is large enough that some sort of rack could be attached with some stability.
Interesting to see your set-up ... but the OP was not asking about bike-packing set-ups, he wanted a rack on the swing-arm.
Maybe there is a market and he should get to work designing and building?
A rack attached to the rear triangle---not the frame or seat post---would move with the suspension, with the wheel ... the frame and rider would move much less (hence suspension.)
Much as the stuff in the giant seat bag will get shaken ... they will be moving less and less violently than if they were attached to the wheel and swing arm.
I do not know of a manufacturer who makes racks to attach to F/S swing arms ... which is the point of the post. I think no one does it because it is not a good idea.
The one bike you show with a rear rack---maybe one of those Ti Moots with a flex-joint or whatever ... I notice the rack is empty and the load is in the seat bag. The other doesn't even have a rack (though the triangle" (swing arm) is large enough that some sort of rack could be attached with some stability.
Interesting to see your set-up ... but the OP was not asking about bike-packing set-ups, he wanted a rack on the swing-arm.
Maybe there is a market and he should get to work designing and building?
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A rack attached to the rear triangle---not the frame or seat post---would move with the suspension, with the wheel ... the frame and rider would move much less (hence suspension.)
Much as the stuff in the giant seat bag will get shaken ... they will be moving less and less violently than if they were attached to the wheel and swing arm.
Much as the stuff in the giant seat bag will get shaken ... they will be moving less and less violently than if they were attached to the wheel and swing arm.
I do not know of a manufacturer who makes racks to attach to F/S swing arms ... which is the point of the post. I think no one does it because it is not a good idea.
The one bike you show with a rear rack---maybe one of those Ti Moots with a flex-joint or whatever ... I notice the rack is empty and the load is in the seat bag. The other doesn't even have a rack (though the triangle" (swing arm) is large enough that some sort of rack could be attached with some stability.
Although you can’t see them clearly, there are micropanniers on the bike in the last picture. Here’s yet another configuration that includes the micropanniers (really just two handlebar bags attached to a carrier) as well as the fork leg bags.
I probably wouldn’t put a rack on the Specialized but I haven’t bikepacked on it but once for a shorter trip. For longer trips, the Moots works better. The Specialized does have a larger triangle that will take a frame bag but not the size of the frame bag that the Moots can take. I have a smaller frame bag that works well for that bike and will still work on the Moots.
Interesting to see your set-up ... but the OP was not asking about bike-packing set-ups, he wanted a rack on the swing-arm.
Maybe there is a market and he should get to work designing and building?
Maybe there is a market and he should get to work designing and building?
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OP has watched too many Mad Max movies. LOL. Get fatter tires if needed.
Alee Denham certainly didn't need bungee forks in the middle of desert in the Outback or Jordan.
His bike is a Rohloff14 Koga World Traveler and his GF had a Pinion Priority I think, that does have front suspension.
Alee Denham certainly didn't need bungee forks in the middle of desert in the Outback or Jordan.
His bike is a Rohloff14 Koga World Traveler and his GF had a Pinion Priority I think, that does have front suspension.
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There is a reason Reise and Müller stuff is more expensive, it is well built with good quality parts that will last a long time, it has good support from the manufacturer and from Bosch so it is a bike you can have for 10 years+ and it is still going. There is a reason I bought a Supercharger2 and it wasn't because I wanted to spend that kind of money but because I wanted a reliable durable bike I could ride daily and do minimal care on and have it serve me for many years to come. It is a blast to ride and had almost everything I wanted. You can get certain things on other bikes but to get that complete package is tough.
I get it though it is easier to laugh at what you don't understand then to actually ask questions and try and understand it. It is not a bike for everyone and it is not a cheap bike in any sense of the word but if you haven't ridden one and don't understand it you might want to ask some questions first before laughing like someone just farted and you are 4 years old and think that is funny.
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My guess is that it's two-fold:
1) Mountain bikers mostly abandoned bottles and frame/seat bags in favor of hydration backpacks, eliminating the need for space inside the frame.
2) Riders like lower top tubes for better clearance should they need to jump off the pedals in a hurry.
1) Mountain bikers mostly abandoned bottles and frame/seat bags in favor of hydration backpacks, eliminating the need for space inside the frame.
2) Riders like lower top tubes for better clearance should they need to jump off the pedals in a hurry.
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As for the Main triangle .... @UrBaNknkight nails it. Smaller frames are stiffer, and lower top tubes let riders move around more ... and some bikes have the shock in the main triangle.
I thought he OP meant the rear triangle.
I thought he OP meant the rear triangle.
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I've noticed that trend too. It might be due to a shift towards more compact, efficient designs for better handling and performance. Smaller triangles can make frames stiffer and lighter, but it's a bummer for those who need rear rack space.