timtak

One other thing that I failed to mention is that I was unable to use my first faux-time-trial (forward shifted road bike) position, with a long stem and aero bars

Lanced Road Bike - Long Stem 150mm by Timothy Takemoto, on Flickr
until I found hollow saddles because in the forward shifted position, where I am leaning forward, like a superman, I found that I was seat on, or near to on, my testicles. The solution was very hollow saddles.

Leatherless Selle SMP Evolution Saddle by Timothy Takemoto, on Flickr

These days I don't need a hollow saddle because, as John Cobb (advisor to LeMond and Armstrong) says, I can sit on my quads.

I find it pertinent to imagine that I am sitting on a very tall recumbent, where my saddle is the recumbent seat. My testicles are now far from my saddle.

There is a theory in cultural psychology (Yuki, 2003) about why people participate in groups or forums.
1) To enjoy a feeling of "them" and "us"; to put down out-groups and praise fellow in-group members (a below)
2) To form a network to help other members of your group, also for a feel-good factor (b below)

Yuki, 2003

My suggestions may be tosh but they are working well for me, so I come here to share something that works for me in the hope that others will also find that it works for them, and they'll be grateful, say thanks, I and I will feel good about having helped some one.

There seems to be a lot of trashing going on here. This is fun no doubt but, er... Yeah.

Yuki, M. (2003). Intergroup comparison versus intragroup relationships: A cross-cultural examination of social identity theory in North American and East Asian cultural contexts. Social Psychology Quarterly, 166–183. Retrieved from https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdfplus/1519846.pdf

livedarklions

Which part of "just stop" made you think I was looking for further explanation?

Kapusta

Sell what?

timtak

Which part of anything made you think I'd care about you want?

Do you sell expensive, upright, non-aero "aero road bikes" that encourage people to stay fat?

Tim

WhyFi

You're the only one sellin' anything there, and ain't no one buyin'.

Kapusta

A comment that asinine does not even deserve to be engaged.

livedarklions

That you were quoting me.

Don't pretend to be responding to my post when it's obvious that all that's going on here is you like to hear yourself talk.

.

livedarklions

No, here's what's really going on--you've hijacked a thread by posting long post after long post completely off-topic of the thread insisting that pretty much everyone else in the bicycling world has it wrong and you have it right. Your summary of the reasons people post in groups is woefully incomplete--what you're doing is very familiar to people who have witnessed other people promote crackpot theories--you're the flat earther telling all of science that it's a conspiracy of lies. You're doing basically a Gish gallop, every time someone points out the gross and obvious flaws in your "theory", you move on to another point which in turn gets refuted, you then bring up another point, etc., and then eventually start again with the original premise as if all that refutation never occurred.

You're being completely dishonest here--if you want to discuss your ideas, start a thread with the topic clearly labeled so we can avoid it in droves and you'll have the people who want to take you seriously (if there are any) engage with you there. .

terrymorse 

Never mind the saddle position, those handlebars are frightening.

And UCI illegal, of course.

Kapusta

No, you’ve come here saying that anyone not riding what you are (including pro racers) are doing it wrong or fat.

smd4

That thing looks like a medieval torture device. My neck and lower back hurt just looking at it.

livedarklions

Yes, the stuff you quoted is what all would-be genius charlatans say.

livedarklions

This is one of the funny things when UCI comes up in a discussion of innovation. The function of UCI rules is, in part, the refusal to allow certain types of innovations into the competition, whether for safety reasons or because the innovation somehow changes the nature of the machine so it's no longer the same kind of competition as it's been traditionally. That last bit is a bit abstract, but it's definitely putting a limitation on the commercial potential for several lines of innovation (e.g., sub-UCI weight bikes, various iterations of the superman posture). But this has absolutely nothing to do with your basic non-competitive rider as long as they're not looking to emulate competitive riders.

Kapusta

Yeah, all “UCI compliant“ tells you is that is is UCI compliant. It tells you nothing about whether something is a good idea or not.

terrymorse 

I appreciate that some UCI rules are stifling innovation, but it seems to me everyone ought to consider the handlebars rule. Just from a weight distribution consideration. For safety sake.

If I saw someone show up at a group ride with that wacky handlebar setup (above), I would give that rider a very wide berth.

Also, it's worth mentioning that the UCI weight limit was intended for safety. They just haven't updated the number in a while.

livedarklions

Agreed, some of the UCI rules are about safety. I'm just not literate enough in the technology to distinguish whether the handlebar rule falls into that category. Thanks!

I think we're well past the time where the current weight limit can plausibly be believed to be related to safety when we know they are literally just adding weights to the bicycles to comply with the rule. Bureaucratic inertia can only get you so far as an explanation as to why this weight limit would still be in place so long after its clear sell-by date.

genejockey 

But of course, it's what all the pros would be riding if their sponsors didn't force them to ride those bikes that might as well be hybrids!

I love the "I had to get a different saddle so I wouldn't crush my testicles" thing though. He commits to the bit, you have to give him that.

From watching GCN Tech, it seems like the bikes in the TdF peloton are not pushing the weight limit all that much. I guess the difference between 7-something kg and 6.8 is not that important anymore. But it's worth noting that 25 years ago, Bicycle Guide built a sub-16 lb bike - about half a kg heavier than the UCI limit, that was so noodly that nobody over 150 lbs could ride it and so fragile that nobody'd want to. Amazing how far we've come, innit?

terrymorse 

Yeah, I remember what it was like to be a weight weenie back then. The light parts were decidedly "noodly" (a good word).

My "noodliest" weight weenie purchase was an Easton ultra lightweight fork (don't remember the model). Steering that thing through fast corners was, um, exciting.

Several modern frames and forks are just as light, but much stiffer. My Scott Addict weighs just over 14 lbs, but it is solid.

mschwett 

the only kind of bike which encourages anyone to stay fat is one that’s uncomfortable or otherwise unpleasant to ride. it is very easy to burn calories enjoyable on any comfortable bike, whether that’s upright, endurance, race, aero, hybrid, whatever you want to call it. eking out the best cda and recruiting the last muscle fiber is about going fast for the least energy, not losing weight or keeping it off.

mschwett 

i didn’t ride seriously back then, but it still amazes me that the <600g frame of my aethos, which literally weighs less than the gatorade in my bottle, supports not just my weight but absolutely all the force i can put it into it standing up and pedaling at full power (which admittedly isn’t all that much 😂😂😂 ) without complaint. i’m sure it’s flexing as intended, but it’s not disconcerting or even evident to me.

seems like progress.

timtak

I wrote "Do you sell non aero "aero road bikes" that encourage people to stay fat.
I think this is an important issue. I know at least two people who went to Local BS shops with the purpose of improving or maintaining their health. They were sold entry level road bikes that put their chest to the wind. This can be modified with long downwards pointing stems to make them fast and fun to ride but it took me quite a long time. I might not have been able to loose weight. It was touch and go for me and it does not seem to be working well for my acquaintances. I appreciate that selling UCI team branded new bikes allows people to make a living, send their kids to school, but at the same time, it is one of the many things that facilities the obesity and ill health that is now rampant in the USA and to a lesser extent in many other places too. Some people blame the food industry. This is a life or death issue.

I quoted you because you raised a valid point] that my current bike is not like a time-trial bike. I responded, for the sake of those who might see that route as more logical (after all, most amateurs ride on their own, trying to go fast, in a sense time trials). I don't mind interacting with you though.

As far as I know I am responding to the topic which is "Is much of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitive racing edge." My response is yes, and I am trying to demonstrate why.

I think it is very important to realise that the Pro Pelton do not ride like amateur cyclists who are "not pushing a competitive racing edge." So it is not that the Pros the people who ride criteriums, or the UCI are wrong, it is just that they are riding in a different way. Their bikes may well therefore be wrong for the people addressed by this thread, but people keep coming back to pros and criteriums and the UCI. It is they, you, that are posting off topic posts.

It seems to me that, in the face of the dishonesty promoted the cycling industry, and in order to counter it, and perhaps, perhaps even save a life somewhere, I am particularly interested in the topic of this thread, not "discussing my ideas."

Why do you mention the UCI? This thread is not about competitive cycling.

I am saying that Pros are riding in a different way to the vast majority of amateurs, and yet over and over again the "pro racers" are wheeled out as a model for what those who are NOT riding competitively should be riding.

I think that this is partly (or largely) because some people (though I don't know who) want to sell the bikes sponsoring the UCI teams, even though non branded bikes, or bikes from the 20th century, would be a lot more suitable for, and health promoting to, those that ride like most amateurs that I see ride. There is the possibility that they may be training for group races but, I doubt many of them are. I am not. This thread is specifically about those that are not riding like the pros, not riding UCI rules, and not riding in criteriums, and yet you and others keep mentioning "the pros" etc as a model for non competitive cyclists.

Kapusta

Which was most likely exactly what they should have been sold. Sticking people on bikes like yours is the surest way to make them hate cycling, and the recent move towards offering a wider variety if fits and the move AWAY from sticking everyone on racing setups has been the greatest improvement to road cycling in the past 30 years.

Literally NOBODY has every tried cycling and quit due to the setup not being aero enough.

The idea that upright bikes encourage people to get fat is so completely insane that I am beginning to wonder if I am just being trolled. If so, well played.

Wait, so non-competitive riders should be riding in MORE aero position than professionals?

This is troll, isn't it?

tomato coupe

A blast from the past, for your amusement:

Goofy Glasses: Look like a **** but get down long and low with no Neck Pain

The bike position is so bad that the rider can't see ahead while wearing normal glasses.

mschwett 

i tried to reply … but it was just so nonsensical and convoluted and self contradictory that i couldn’t come up with the words!

amateurs are getting fat because their bikes are too upright/comfortable (which makes them stop riding ?!?) … and the pros are going slower than they could because they’re being forced by the manufacturers to ride bikes that aren’t aerodynamic … because the manufacturers want everyone else to get fat not riding those same bikes?

base2 

My gawd. If I hear the phrase: "Chest in the wind" one more time...

I can't quite put my finger on it but for whatever reason this keeps coming to mind: