chaadster

Thanks for the passionate defense, but unfortunately I do not know whether you are right or wrong, as I have not followed the discussion at all, and was just jumping in to kibitz, albeit drawing on my previous experiences with the poster Campag4life...who, as an interesting aside, is not "Campagnolo for life" as his user name might suggest. He's quite a Shimano fan, believe it or not!

Campag4life

Thanks Maelochs...
At the end of the day, discussion grows wearisome. People here ignorance about carbon fiber...those with little experience with it making sweeping inaccurate statements. Ridiculous.
What is particularly laughable is...the single most stressed member on a frame is the front fork and what is the material most commonly used in the industry for ALL bike materials...Al, steel, Ti and carbon fiber frames?....carbon fiber forks.
What this thread proves as mentioned is just how alive and well the flat earth society is.
Cheers.

vanguardx3

You are making the most elementary error of all, which is the very odd presupposition that any single person can be perfect in their arguments.

Why you ascribe god like characteristics to campag4life is beyond me.

Campag4life is making the same error that he ascribes to others, which is thinking strictly in black and white terms, ie "carbon is perfect, there are no failures." The reality is, any material can fail. Carbon just happens to fail under rather mundane conditions that cover a very large percentage of riders. That is, riders who install parts or remove them without a torque wrench, and riders who transport their bikes. I'd say this covers a fair percentage of bicyclists.

Also, campag4life has some difficulty coming up with apt metaphors. Of course most people don't drive hummers. Then again, most people don't drive camry's, even though camry's are the most popular selling sedan in the US. Even though hummers themselves are not especially popular, trucks and suv's are wildly popular in the US. The sales prove this fact over several decades.

Also, the notion that bicycle manufacturers were or are going out of business by selling heavy, overbuilt bikes is quite ridiculous. Mountain bikes made up half the sales of all bike shop bikes in the '80's and today, they, along with other heavy bikes: comfort bikes and hybrids, account for a majority of sales as well.

Trek makes very lightweight bikes and are the largest domestic "manufacturer" but it's a safe bet that their sales lead was and is due in large part due to their association with lance armstrong, not because their bikes are especially lightweight.

Trying to ascribe "ubermensch" status to anyone posting on an internet forum is actually quite silly.

But back on topic, I don't have an aversion to carbon bikes. Some of them ride well, some of them don't. I do take heed of Texiera's words and take into account his accounting of carbon's strengths AND weaknesses, since he is especially experienced with design and manufacture.

I doubt that campag or anyone else posting here can lay claim to similar credentials. I don't mind your "impassioned defense" as some might call it, but it's totally overblown.

vanguardx3

Really? You have 10,000 posts so I doubt you find the process wearisome. You are the one posting the most frequently in this thread, and perhaps on the forum overall.

Also, as I have pointed out, your tendency towards black and white arguments and inane labeling of everyone else as wrong while arguing that only you can be right and have authoritative knowledge is beyond laughable. Please rein it in.

Maelochs

Sorry, dude, but the post too which I was replying directly was citing a post by Campag in which he Admitted that carbon had durability issues. The whole point was that campag was saying carbon was as safe as any other material but Not perfect, and someone else said he was thus confused.

The whole notion that Camopag was saying "carbon is perfect, there are no failures" is exactly opposite of what he said, so I don't understand what you are saying ... or there is misunderstanding somewhere ....

Well, I doubt any of us are all that great as writers---Shoot, I could call you out for improper capitalization of proper nouns.

And indeed, most people seem to buy pickups, not sedans. On the other hand, most people do Not buy pick-ups for safety, I'd wager, but more for the manly image, which they buy into because they believe advertising. And a lot of people (based on my observation, no kind of scientific study or structured poll) buy SUVs because they like big, substantial cars, and associiate big cars with comfort and wealth. [/quote]

Here you are either confused or being disingenuous. The quote about going out of business selling heavy bikes referred directly to selling Road Bikes, something we all understood if we had been following the conversation. The quote referred to companies like Schwinn with their 36-lb ten-speed Road Bikes, getting blown out of the market by companies building lighter Road Bikes.

Obviously mountain bikes tend to weigh more than road bikes, and all of us who rode through the '80s and more so the '90s recall the boom in mountain bikes ... but lightweight road bikes hit the market well before that, and companies who did not adapt and start selling competitively light bikes, lost market share. The "mountain bike" comment is off-target.

Very inventive. Have any evidence? if it were true, one would expect Trek's popularity to follow Lance Armstrong's, eh? Doesn't seem to be the case. And what about Giant? Which rider boosted them to be a force in the industry? Interesting proposition, but not sure it is supported by evidence. You can supply such evidence if you have it.

I AM the Internet “Übermensch” in one specific category. I Am the Ultimate Bloviator. I am honored that you would notice.

Wingsprint

When started last week, I had a feeling this thread would go in this direction...

700

Yeah, does anybody who's bought, sold, ridden or serviced multiple ALUMINUM bicycles in the last 20-30 years have anything relevant to say about the thread subject?

McBTC

... trash-talking CF? Sure, that's safe, unlike trash-talking steel... what do the pros know?

Maelochs

Everything new in cycling is better than the old stuff ... except the riders.

OldsCOOL

I currently ride an '88 Cannondale Criterium Series, is that old enough? I've worked on a few of them and other friends of mine have these same bikes. The harder you ride it the more you appreciate. It does not disappoint.

cruiserhead

all the pro bikes are actually sleeved with steel tubes so when the carbon explodes, they won't crash.
Same with the wheels.

If Alberto Contador's pro bike were to explode, Jaques Anquetil on a steel bike would ride out the other side of the carbon dust cloud.
True story.

zastolj

Just pulled the trigger on this 2015 Vitus Zenium frameset.
Weight is the same as Caad10, Bowman etc.(1100-1200g) but with a proper english 68mm threaded bb and a pretty light all-carbon fork.
If you want one, better be quick. In 2016 they ruined it by putting disc brake mounts on it!!
Cheap as hell and looks nice, too.

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/f.../rp-prod125555

Erzulis Boat 

I just got a Cannondale CAAD7 off of craigslist for a "beater" bike. I am a fan of aluminum (I ride CF-steel etc.) so I know what to expect.

I took it on a spin, and it absolutely blew me away. I stripped the Campy Record (2002) off of a Pinarello, and I am sticking it on a $225.00 craigslist bike.

Awesome "old" aluminum is still awesome.

Now I know why people go crazy for CAAD frames.

Road Fan

Campag, you mention "extreme advances in tube forming ... " Are you referring to the hydroforming process? If so, then I think it is also applied to steel, in automotive production of body panels and structural elements. If so, a new day of steel frame performance could be approaching, for the same reason Al frame performance was improved.

Maelochs

Starting with post #11 (https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycli...l#post18438824) in this thread there is a brief discussion of SPF ... which those of us who paid our dues by reading the whole thread would know. >(

Wingsprint

I posted:
You quoted me and stated:

Huh?

McBTC

It's hard to arrive at the single unvarnished truth about these matters because the facts can be spun to support preconceived notions. Some of the conclusions people have about bike frames practically telegraph the bias and personal opinions that underlie supposed objective views --e.g., if you have the skill to win the Td'F and do not care about longevity you'll want the stiffness of aluminum or CF under you but if you plan to engage in thousands of miles of bicycle touring yearly for a decade you'll choose steel.

Road Fan

Welllll, ok.

Campag4life

Will be a good day when that happens. We haven't seen the extreme forming of Steel like is now prevalent with Al. I hope the tech you speak of occurs and Steel becomes even more desirable.

Maelochs

Yeah, aluminum is still a lot easier to shape intricately than is steel---it is the main advantage the material has for bike frames. I am sure there is a lot that can be done with steel nowadays---new alloys, new working methods---but for the ultra-thin-wall tubing used in bikes, steel just doesn't cooperate as well.

Frankly, the future belongs to composites. I know a lot of folks hate the idea, and I assume there will be folks making custom steel frames for another generation or so, but materials tech is advancing most dramatically in the realm of composites. Pretty soon (well, in a generation) everyone will be riding all-plastic bikes which weigh about three pounds and are self-lubricating, with constant-variable belt-drive or maybe geared driveshafts, and all this atavistic dirty metal and gunk will be part of the past.

DaveWC

Gweedo1 is RT. Guaranteed:

Both refer to a 15 year hiatus

Both use a pretty unusual phrase "cheese & rice"

Garfield Cat

Not a direct answer, but try Dedacciai and see how hydroforming is the big change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PYnGEHSlV4#t=49

Gweedo1

And so after mulling things over for a bit, I have reached a strategy for my cycling future: I will take my modern Al framed bike off the road after 5 years of use and close monitoring of the carbon fibre fork, and use it only on an indoor trainer when the weather is too cold to ride....because I do not trust the carbon fibre fork. I am afraid it will catastrophically fail me and will not be able to feel at ease or confident when descending at speed, or riding over some rough surfaces, especially over big, square type hits or even with aggressive use of the front binder. Then, after I saved my money up over that 5 year period, I will buy myself a new, Italian steel framed bike, and ride utterly at ease knowing I have the best bicycle frame material for me. I will be able to ride with far fewer concerns for my safety even knowing steel forks and frames can break....but utterly secure in knowing I will most likely have some warning, and that the probability of failure is far less than that Al or carbon fibre.

I reached this conclusion after having done a lot of research into Al and carbon fibre before I bought my current bike, and am now convinced based on the weakness of the counter arguments presented her, which boil down to name calling and brow beating and even accusations I am somebody else because I use popular expressions...cheese and rice it does not get much sillier than that, and am familiar when owners of certain products defend their choices when it seems they are not all that they seem, even in the face of undeniable evidence to the contrary: do not like the message, kill the messenger. I get it. But, that message has far, far more messengers than yours truly, and they all cannot be killed, so, I encourage you deniers to learn how to accept the truth: your frames and forks have some serious and undeniable safety issues.

Somebody in the preceding posts presented what I feel is a lame argument that if carbon fibre frames are such a safety hazard, that there would be countless law suits or class actions etc to prove it. Of course there could be any number of reason why there are not as many as there are, and there are enough, some of which could be non-disclosure agreements, but if people feel that the myth of carbon fibre fragility is being perpetuated by uniformed or inexperienced dim wits like yours truly has been accused of doing and being, then I suggest you gather up your formidable resources, hire a lawyer, go on line and one by one, systematically send the countless personal injury lawyers out there with information on their web sites blatantly stating that carbon fibre bicycle frames and forks are fragile and not to be trusted, cease and desist orders and demand they take that information down. See how far you get with that, because if you think about it, the bicycle industry should be doing exactly that if those statements are patently false...right?

But that does not seem to be the case, and why is that? Because the bicycle industry and all its engineers and experts and countless fan boys slash self-proclaimed experts, cannot make a case that their composite products fail at no greater a rate than Al or steel or Ti, that is why, and for me...that is all he proof I need.

I wish everybody success in his cycling career regardless of what you choose to ride or believe. As Eddy said, just ride. It is a great sport and lifestyle.

Jarrett2

I owned a 2014 Secteur and moved to a Roubaix, then to steel and each had a better feel that the AL.

Suffice to say, I find this assertion completely incorrect.

Campag4life

I suppose there is always room for disagreement. Couldn't disagree more. I currently own a 2014 Secteur and a 2012 Roubaix SL3 Pro with 10r carbon and the Secteur rides better than the Roubaix and FWIW the Roubaix has a great ride for a raceable frame...its quite stiff. I believe Specialized absolutely nailed both bikes in all respects, stiffness and ride quality.
The Secteur isn't quite as stiff as the Roubaix and has what feels like a more 'luxurious' ride quality. It feels like driving a Cadillac and the Roubaix feels more BMW like as say compared to a Tarmac which feels like a Porsche with quicker steering and even greater road feel than the Roubaix.

Honestly both Secteur and Roubaix have a much better balance of stiffness to ride quality than any of the 30 steel road bikes I have owned. I have been at this a long time and owned 50 road bikes.

So indeed, this stuff is personal.
But make no mistake about the direction of the industry. Steel is dead and for good reason and so is Ti. The big brands with the heaviest R&D sell pretty much carbon and Al exclusively for good reason. These are the two best materials for making a high performance bicycle. Not steel and not Ti for all the boutique, bearded fanboys. Them are the facts and based upon sound engineering judgement. I have owned them all and the big brands have it right and not the oldsters clinging to a bygone era of believing steel or Ti is better. The opposite is true and why the industry has moved on and for good reason.