Disc Brakes Annoyance
#101
Clark W. Griswold
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 13,691
Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4427 Post(s)
Liked 4,072 Times
in
2,715 Posts
Now I like a fast vehicle as well but you can be fast without feeling jarred to death. It doesn't have to be a Countach or a Town Car. There is stuff in between and on the outside of that. Yes there are always going to be the cars that someone just turns into a pure out and out race car, they delete the heat and A/C and any comforts and then get beat by a Tesla which is a comfortable car and fast as heck. It is not to say the race car isn't cool and maybe cooler than the Tesla but I would rather have the comfort and the speed.
#102
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,860
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3560 Post(s)
Liked 2,979 Times
in
1,801 Posts
I know you've noticed, because you've said it, but I have zero interest in breaking down my riding scientifically. I have no interest in riding faster than I already do, and I no interest in cornering to a greater degree than I already do.
#103
Habitual User
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 8,113
Bikes: 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2018 Trek Procaliber 9.9 RSL, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5035 Post(s)
Liked 8,243 Times
in
3,897 Posts
Empirical testing may prove that a wider tire has less rolling resistance and larger contact patch, resulting in being faster in a straight line, and better cornering grip, but keep in mind that the machine is still being operated by a human. A lack of familiarity with the response of the machine might result in less confidence pushing into the zone where those advantages exist, and the net performance isn't actually improved.
__________________
"Swedish fish. They're protein shaped." - livedarklions
"Swedish fish. They're protein shaped." - livedarklions
#104
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,086
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10488 Post(s)
Liked 12,014 Times
in
6,151 Posts
...the frame, the material it's made from, the dimensions and geometry of it, the wheels, the riding surface, all come together in whether or not a bicycle feels "comfortable" while riding it. YOu've made some concessions to comfort, whether you realize it or not, in your choices in that regard. But I know you feel like we all ought to be able to do what works for us.
What I can't understand is the constant chatter that seems to indicate otherwise. I know no one from the current CF is better, tires need to be wider believes I could be happy on steel, riding 700x25's at 130#. But it's only important to my happiness that I believe it.
What I can't understand is the constant chatter that seems to indicate otherwise. I know no one from the current CF is better, tires need to be wider believes I could be happy on steel, riding 700x25's at 130#. But it's only important to my happiness that I believe it.
"Smoother, more vibration-absorbing ride" are pretty relative terms. They get tossed around all the time here. All bicycles are a compromise between "smoother" and "more efficient", even the older steel ones. It's just the way it is.
But again, ride what you like. Last Sunday I felt like riding my CF bike with discs and 28s at 80/85. Yesterday I felt like old steel, rim brakes, and 25s at 90/95. I had a blast both rides.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
#105
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,860
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3560 Post(s)
Liked 2,979 Times
in
1,801 Posts
In my analogy, it does. So now you're telling me which analogy I can or can't use? Sheesh.
There is stuff in between and on the outside of that. Yes there are always going to be the cars that someone just turns into a pure out and out race car, they delete the heat and A/C and any comforts and then get beat by a Tesla which is a comfortable car and fast as heck. It is not to say the race car isn't cool and maybe cooler than the Tesla but I would rather have the comfort and the speed.
#106
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,086
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10488 Post(s)
Liked 12,014 Times
in
6,151 Posts
Yeah, but you're the one who made the analogy. I merely pointed out the flaw in it. It's not so much Ferrari vs. Lincoln Town Car. More like old Ferrari vs new Ferrari.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
Likes For genejockey:
#107
Clark W. Griswold
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 13,691
Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4427 Post(s)
Liked 4,072 Times
in
2,715 Posts
I just cannot believe that a 140psi 23c tire is not going to be jarring, maybe you are used to it. Having ridden 23c tires pumped to 100 I found them a bit jarring I couldn't imagine going higher than that. Maybe you have some really cushy joints or less feeling in your limbs or something. Or that bike you have is really plush in all other ways or your roads are smooth and perfect which if you have that you are lucky lucky!
#108
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,860
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3560 Post(s)
Liked 2,979 Times
in
1,801 Posts
I just cannot believe that a 140psi 23c tire is not going to be jarring, maybe you are used to it. Having ridden 23c tires pumped to 100 I found them a bit jarring I couldn't imagine going higher than that. Maybe you have some really cushy joints or less feeling in your limbs or something. Or that bike you have is really plush in all other ways or your roads are smooth and perfect which if you have that you are lucky lucky!
#109
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,991
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26460 Post(s)
Liked 10,418 Times
in
7,233 Posts
The whole history of steel frame design treated this issue, using different frame tubing designs, and geometries for construction. Some of the last of the steel frames (before makers decided to abandon the effort), used oversized tubing with very thin walls...in the interest of minimizing flex so they might be "more efficient". Again, I'm not trying to argue that anything is "better" or "worse". Only that "smoother" faster" "more efficient", and "laterally stiff, but vertically compliant" are relative terms that are meaningless in choosing what to ride and how to ride it (in terms of enjoyment).
My Cannondale touring bike convinced me that I could probably ride anything enjoyably, if I introduced enough flex into the system using wider tires. But it was not a convincing argument for a personal transition to CF reinforced plastic as a frame material I enjoy riding. The few cycles made from it I've ridden convinced me it was going in the wrong direction for my own enjoyment.
But to take the thread back on topic, I don't need discs either. If I though I was going to do any more loaded touring, I might experiment with them. But I enjoy sleeping in a bed too much now. It is a firm mattress, though.
#110
Habitual User
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 8,113
Bikes: 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2018 Trek Procaliber 9.9 RSL, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5035 Post(s)
Liked 8,243 Times
in
3,897 Posts
Another flaw is that (most) race cars do not run the highest pressures they are allowed, they run the lowest.
__________________
"Swedish fish. They're protein shaped." - livedarklions
"Swedish fish. They're protein shaped." - livedarklions
#111
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,860
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3560 Post(s)
Liked 2,979 Times
in
1,801 Posts
#112
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,086
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10488 Post(s)
Liked 12,014 Times
in
6,151 Posts
...nonetheless, they are opposed. Smoother as more efficient arguments are always couched in terms of riding surface. That's why you still see 23's on track bikes. The current crop of "more comfortable" CF frames like your Canyon are simply a recognition that bicycle frame design (for most of us non pro athlete users), has been needlessly stiff in the interests of eliminating losses due to frame flex.
The whole history of steel frame design treated this issue, using different frame tubing designs, and geometries for construction. Some of the last of the steel frames (before makers decided to abandon the effort), used oversized tubing with very thin walls...in the interest of minimizing flex so they might be "more efficient". Again, I'm not trying to argue that anything is "better" or "worse". Only that "smoother" faster" "more efficient", and "laterally stiff, but vertically compliant" are relative terms that are meaningless in choosing what to ride and how to ride it (in terms of enjoyment).
My Cannondale touring bike convinced me that I could probably ride anything enjoyably, if I introduced enough flex into the system using wider tires. But it was not a convincing argument for a personal transition to CF reinforced plastic as a frame material I enjoy riding. The few cycles made from it I've ridden convinced me it was going in the wrong direction for my own enjoyment.
But to take the thread back on topic, I don't need discs either. If I though I was going to do any more loaded touring, I might experiment with them. But I enjoy sleeping in a bed too much now. It is a firm mattress, though.
The whole history of steel frame design treated this issue, using different frame tubing designs, and geometries for construction. Some of the last of the steel frames (before makers decided to abandon the effort), used oversized tubing with very thin walls...in the interest of minimizing flex so they might be "more efficient". Again, I'm not trying to argue that anything is "better" or "worse". Only that "smoother" faster" "more efficient", and "laterally stiff, but vertically compliant" are relative terms that are meaningless in choosing what to ride and how to ride it (in terms of enjoyment).
My Cannondale touring bike convinced me that I could probably ride anything enjoyably, if I introduced enough flex into the system using wider tires. But it was not a convincing argument for a personal transition to CF reinforced plastic as a frame material I enjoy riding. The few cycles made from it I've ridden convinced me it was going in the wrong direction for my own enjoyment.
But to take the thread back on topic, I don't need discs either. If I though I was going to do any more loaded touring, I might experiment with them. But I enjoy sleeping in a bed too much now. It is a firm mattress, though.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
#113
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,001
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3980 Post(s)
Liked 7,429 Times
in
2,988 Posts
I feel cheated — I opened this thread looking for some good disc brake bickering, but it’s just an argument about tire width and tire pressure. Soooooo bummed.
Likes For tomato coupe:
#114
Habitual User
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 8,113
Bikes: 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2018 Trek Procaliber 9.9 RSL, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5035 Post(s)
Liked 8,243 Times
in
3,897 Posts
You have a very specific way you like to set up your bike(s), and you want your bike to have a certain feel in response to the road and your input. A deviation from that - even one that makes your bike more efficient/faster - is not of interest to you because it disturbs the familiar feeling. Excellent! Have at it, and enjoy the ride the way you want to enjoy it.
__________________
"Swedish fish. They're protein shaped." - livedarklions
"Swedish fish. They're protein shaped." - livedarklions
#115
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,086
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10488 Post(s)
Liked 12,014 Times
in
6,151 Posts
Lord knows nothing like that ever happened before.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
#116
Clark W. Griswold
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 13,691
Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4427 Post(s)
Liked 4,072 Times
in
2,715 Posts
#117
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,086
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10488 Post(s)
Liked 12,014 Times
in
6,151 Posts
Now I run them at 100-110. Much better, but I prefer the clincher wheels with 25mm tires at 90/95.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
Likes For genejockey:
#118
Steel is real
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Not far from Paris
Posts: 1,985
Bikes: 1992Giant Tourer,1992MeridaAlbon,1996Scapin,1998KonaKilaueua,1993Peugeot Prestige,1991RaleighTeamZ(to be upgraded),1998 Jamis Dragon,1992CTWallis(to be built),1998VettaTeam(to be built),1995Coppi(to be built),1993Grandis(to be built)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 671 Post(s)
Liked 992 Times
in
659 Posts
No sorry 23c tires are not comfortable and having rim brakes doesn't necessarily make a more comfortable bike (though disc brakes do require a stiffer fork). Wider tires at a lower pressure are going to be more comfortable generally. I love steel and titanium frame and have no interest in having aluminum or carbon frames personally but in the end I think wider tires would probably be a better maker of comfort then frame material up to a point. Certainly in vintage skinny tire department frame material will make a bigger difference but with wider tires I think it does take a little bit of that away. Not totally but enough.
For instance my 25c tire bike is less comfortable than my bikes running 28c tires with a similar position. The 3mm helps a little
For instance my 25c tire bike is less comfortable than my bikes running 28c tires with a similar position. The 3mm helps a little
#119
Habitual User
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 8,113
Bikes: 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2018 Trek Procaliber 9.9 RSL, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5035 Post(s)
Liked 8,243 Times
in
3,897 Posts
#120
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,991
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26460 Post(s)
Liked 10,418 Times
in
7,233 Posts
Likes For 3alarmer:
#121
Clark W. Griswold
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 13,691
Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4427 Post(s)
Liked 4,072 Times
in
2,715 Posts
700-23c and 700-25c are comfy and some older rims width are not allowing wider tires than 700-23c, I don't like large tires on a road bike 700-28c or 700-32c, 700-25c is the maximum I can accept, also the rear and front tire clearance should be taken in consideration when buying tires and when having a not so new frame. If I want to gravel I have 700-35c schwalbe marathons on my hybrid. The comfort is also due to the saddle you have chosen to ride, the wheels and tires as well as what is the bartape stem and bar combination you have chosen to ride with. I used to ride in my very first road bike on 700-19c and 700-20c tires before switching to 700-23c and some tires are larger than their indicated sizes. Not everyone is into disc brakes , di2, 11 speeds, 12 speeds and large tires.
Yes there is comfort in other things but I think in terms of real ride comfort tires probably have the biggest impact to the point I would rather have an aluminum bike (which I wouldn't really want) with 700x32c tires than a steel bike (which I would want) with 700x23c tires. I used to be part of the old school club of it's gotta be faster we can feel it and then I went wider and haven't really looked back much I have a vintage race bike that can clear only 25c tires it can fit 28s but it is a super tight fit and caused some rubbing and I don't want to damage the paint. I love the look of vintage bikes and some of them do have proper tire clearance and some are just fun to look at and work on but just putting on some bar tape and a saddle can only do so much with skinny tires. Certainly yes a more supple tire will help as well but it won't be as good as a wider supple tire.
In terms of Di2 or anything else not relevant here. You can have a 2x5 bike with wider tires and be more comfortable on it. In terms of disc brakes there are fewer and fewer draw backs as time goes on. I do have plenty of rim braked bikes and will continue to have them for a while so it is not a treatise against them but they are great for wider tires and other issues.
#122
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2023
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 586
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 381 Post(s)
Liked 284 Times
in
183 Posts
However, your record here of over 5000 posts, including some in this thread, might lead some to logically conclude that you have more interest than you admit.
#123
Advanced Slacker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,215
Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Canfielld Tilt
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2764 Post(s)
Liked 2,537 Times
in
1,433 Posts
Yeah, I read the OP and then skipped to page 5, and…. I’m not going to bother figuring out how it ended up on tire size..
#124
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 775
Bikes: Trek 970, Bianchi Volpe,Casati
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 359 Post(s)
Liked 122 Times
in
87 Posts
No comment
I read through some of these comments and all I can add is "no comment".
ok , I'll comment, what ever floats your boat., or stops your bike. hehehe
ok , I'll comment, what ever floats your boat., or stops your bike. hehehe