Heathpack 

Beautiful morning for a climbing ride with friends, 30 mi/3000 ft. We went into the Angeles National Forest, up to a fire camp called Camp 9. Felt strong today, had a really fun ride. Lucky to be able to ride here from my front door.

Bandera

Saw this on Cycling News:

"FDJ team testing new Shimano power meter at the Tour de France

The device was developed from Shimano's bike fitting technology with important input from the FDJ riders and the French team's director of performance Fred Grappe.....It's been interesting to work with Shimano and bring together the Shimano engineers, the FDJ riders and the FSJ performance staff. We've all learnt from each other. We now have a special relationship. We've used their bike fit system for more than a year. The bike fitting system was built before the power meter but the technology is the same."

FDJ team testing new Shimano power meter at the Tour de France | Cyclingnews.com

Shimano bike fitting system?

Did I miss something important in current fitting technique/tech having been on the sideline for "a while"?
Has anyone been exposed to the "Shimano bike fit system" or is this being developed w/ select world tour teams and hasn't trickled down to the real world yet?

-Bandera

Heathpack 

It looks like this Slowtwitch article explains the evolution of Shimano's bike fit system. The power meter they are now selling seems to be the one they developed for the bike fit system. I've never heard of anyone getting a fit with Shimano's system, though. I'm not sure it's gone much of anywhere since this article was published in 2013.

Shimano Elbows into Bike Fit - Slowtwitch.com

My guess is that Shimano's system remains an inferior system. I am seeing my fitter next Sat, so if you want me to ask him about it, let me know.

Bandera

HP,

Thanks for the link.

Yes, please do ask your fitter about Shimano's "system" existence in our world.

The 2013 article didn't sound promising but underestimating Shimano if they intend to own the powermeter, associated on-bike electronics, web based training processes, bike fit system with total integration of all elements would not be a good bet....

Efficient personalized Fit for competition has been an interest of mine from my 1st coach's positioning through Eddie B's USCF coaching clinics, the Guimard/Le Mond system, "Fit Kit" hardware and a recent re-fit of myself to accommodate injury.

-Bandera

Heathpack 

Sure, no problem. It will be interesting to hear what he has to say about it. I know he feels like the real wave of the future is going to be the ability to use the 3D capture technology (he is a ReTul guy) while you're actually on the road doing your thing. Because what you do on the road is a different thing than on the trainer.

I think the issue with the Shimano fit system is that you have to have a network of people trained to use the equipment well. It sounds like Shimano is focusing on their power meter first, which to me is a smart move. The most compelling question we see here on the boards is 'what kind of power meter should I get?'. Everyone wants one.

Then once people have a PM but don't know what to do with it, having some kind of web-based training and/or gaming makes huge sense. Offer it for free for 6 months with purchase and people will try it out. There's a lot of money to be made in this stuff.

Fit is different. People are very weird about it. They think their fit is good until they decide it's bad. Then they want to visit someone once and get it sorted out, ideally for around $100. For whatever reason, this does not capture people's interest like a new power meter does.

Hermes

Bike fit...I supervised Saturday's beginner session and part of the job is handing out rental bikes. I ask the rider what size bike they want. However, they are limited to what we have which is 49, 52, 54, 56, 58 and one 60. When they answer my question, they can look at the chart. Some want a 57. Hey, only what is on the chart.

Most do not know what they want so I make the selection based on how tall they are.

The good news is that they can swap out the bike if it does not fit. However, the point of the session with a rental bike is to see if one wants to ride the track at all.

However, a few do a good job of setting up the bike. To do a better fit, we would need a person dedicated to fitting and adjusting the bike on a trainer and play around with stems and saddle position. There is no man power or time for that.

Hermes

Eddy B v Shimano v Retul v whatever system you want...

I wanted Jim M at VSC to fit my position on my track bike for team sprint. Keep in mind that team sprint is human performance requirements varies due to starting position. The first racer rides 250 meters at full power while the 3rd racer has to do 750 meters drafting his teammates for the first 500 and then the final 250 by himself.

I go into the studio and JM puts me on the trainer and hooks up the capture stuff. I am peddling and he is fretting over this and that. He says, I want to see a full power flying 200 meter effort on the track. We go down to the track and I do a flying 200. JM says, "just as I thought, you look perfect at full power but different on the trainer. Let's keep this setup." Finished.

When I did my aero testing with JM, we discovered that my CdA dropped as the power went up. Normally, that is not the case and racers CdA worsens when power increases due to loss of control of the bike and lack of concentration. So every 10 lap test run I did two laps at pursuit power.

When I started racing, my first coach held Sunday rides and he followed us around in a team car. I would go into the cycling gym for a workout and he would tweak my fit. He said that racers fit changes as fatigue sets in. When cyclists go for a fit, they are fresh and can hold perfect posture on the bike. Not so much after 50 hard miles and racing is generally about the finish, not the start.

The take away is one can have a perfect dynamic 3D capture fit in the studio that is not so great in practice. IMO, nothing will beat experienced fitters / coaches that actually watch athletes perform under various racing and training situations and adjust fit and training based upon observation to meet athletes's needs.

Heathpack 

I think a lot of this is true. Mostly the fit systems are just tools, but its the person helping with the fit who is really important. That's the problem when you develop a tool like Shimano's bike fit system and then try to sell it to shops. The shop may or may not have a person around who can make good use of the tool. Or know when the tool should be abandoned in favor of something else- like watching the cyclist in free motion or during a hard effort or when fatigued.

And then the flip side of that is how few people really seem to want to pay for a fit- truthfully when people ask me, I talk about it and people's eyes just glaze over. They want the fit but not if they have to drive an hour to get it. NEVERMIND that they actually have access to a quality of fitter that most cyclists don't. They still would rather go and pay the local plumb-bob guy $100 for a fit because its easier. Then the convoluted solutions that people get sold- new shoes, new saddle, shims, etc. Amazingly so many of these people have the same exact issues they saw the fitter about 6 months prior. And now they believe bike fit is bogus. Rather than maybe you saw someone with the wrong level of expertise...

Bandera

Exactly, if my 1st coach was still with us and had access to what data cycle computers, HRMs and PMs capture a 3D fitting system and his old stop watch one could get a Really good fit.

That fit is always subject to change.
Adaptation to the machine with serious seat time in a good program, age, injury and specialization in a discipline as well as new hardware tech all should require a re-visit fit check.

When aero-clipon bars emerged followed closely by the early "funny bike" dedicated TT machines all of the fit "rules & wisdom" went straight out of the window.
Frankly we guessed, got the stopwatch out and worked it out, sorta.

Pics of TT fits from very different periods ( and genders) attached.
Fit is a (pun intended) moving target.

-Bandera

Racer Ex 

My experience is that fit is very individual on a road bike or drop bars. The primary benefit of a system like Retul is that you can pick up fractional things that the eye might miss. In my case the first time I went in I was spot on except for a couple of mm worth of shims under one foot and a wedge shim under the other.

Second time I was spot on.

I think I've quoted Lemond's take on Sean Kelly's position...

Bandera

For those missed it: from Greg Lemond's "Complete Book of Bicycling" which goes into detail on how the Guimmard/Le Mond system is calculated and applied for a proper Fit for road racing:

"He (Sean Kelly) probably determined his position a long time ago, before any one knew any better and simply got used to it." Pg129

Regarding my original post on the subject way back in post #8352 I foresee Shimano's strategic play to integrate the "new" generation of power meter/HRM/on-bike-electronics-shifting/web-based metrics-training-gaming/earth mapping/weather data/Fitting data into a single product to be inevitable, profitable and "Essential". Unless one is a modern Sean Kelly.

I think that I'll take the old Avocet 30 cyclo computer off the FG and go for a nice 19th century tech ride instead.

-Bandera

sarals 

Bandera, right on!

Heathpack 

Talked about this a little today (amongst a great many other things).

He said its actually a really good system and their fit bike is excellent, one of the best. The biggest problem is that the whole thing is too expensive, most shops just can't afford it. So its kind of gone nowhere.

He also said that its not really clear that the power meter currently for sale to consumers is actually the same meter they have on the fit bike. If it is, its likely a good meter. But reading between the lines, it sounded like there is some speculation as to whether the power meter is more "modeled after" the original Shimano fit bike power meter than being identical.

Interesting.

Heathpack 

I had a good week on the bike.

Rode up Mt Baldy on 4th of July with some friends. Its 65ish miles, 7700 ft of climbing and the end is gnarly- 4.5ish mile of 10% grade. It was hot by then and heat + altitude + steep was somehow not as fun as I remember it being. But the rest of the ride was really pretty swell. Magic Bike's odometer flipped over 12,000 miles on that ride. What a transformative thing it was, getting that bike. Total game changer for me. Feb 22, 2014. Not that I remember the day it arrived...

Some rest days and one set of intervals, felt pretty good on those and also on my openers today. Tomorrow I am racing the Piru 20K TT. A friend wanted to do it and now he's bailed, but I'll race anyway.

Productive session with fitter today. He loves the wedges, everything came out perfectly with that project. Mentioned that I should look at Tony Martin's new hand position on his TT bike, he helped him with that. I googled it when I got home and lo and behold, it *does* look like mine. We have so much in common now.

Halfway through Bobby Lea has a quick question and pops his head in, so I get introduced. Second member of the US Olympic Cycling team I've met in the past two months. Pretty polite guy too, apologized for interrupting my session. I was like, "no problem, dude."

Most of the questions I have left cannot be answered without aero testing, so its likely that I'll go that route in Aug. It might work out that I could be a guinea pig for testing a nuance of arm position, which would then require re-testing a month later. If those details work out, the two sessions would be "affordable". I love this stuff, so I'm totally game to do it, hopefully we can make it happen...

Also got my mountain bike shopping list. Happy fitter, he loves mountain biking himself. He thinks I'm going to be smitten.

Bandera

HP,

Thanks! Very interesting.

Spoke w/ am old teammate who runs a very good shop on this subject.
He agrees that the next gen of on-bike PM/HRM/Cadence will integrate w/ altimeter/geo-mapping software and web based metrics/coaching and perhaps bio-feedback and Gaming for a full-on suite of useful and profitable web apps.

Who to lead the Tech? My guess: Shimano.

-Bandera

Heathpack 

Oh, along those lines: we had a conversation about the location of the power meter (between my aerobar extensions) and how that's not the greatest thing from an aero perspective. He asked me what I really looked at during a TT. I thought about it and really the answer was power and distance.

Good, he says. If you look at limited data, you should consider these which display data right on the lens of the sunglasses:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...token=2b66f604

You don't need a head unit so no looking down at it and ruining aero position. No head unit up front creating turbulence. He says they've tested the glasses, no aero penalty for wearing them. My only problem is that I wear prescription cycling glasses, I'd be reluctant to give that up. They look cool though.

But don't you think Shimano missed the boat a bit by releasing this new groupset without it being wireless? Everyone is gaga to get the ETap. They're going to be behind the curve for a few years IMO.

Bandera

Since I've been out of "The Industry" since 1988 and out of active competition since 2001 I'm not really the Go-To Tech guy currently unless you want to build a really nice fixed gear road bike.

That being said I'm not a Luddite and still communicate w/ old contacts in the cycling industry from my perspective as a former Project Manager as well as a competitor and bike builder "back when".

DA 9001 is your choice: Mech or Di2 w/ an integrated PM which (should) lead to a great variety of interesting Stuff as noted previously and a whole New Deal of Integration.
The wired/less form factor on a bike technically? Secured wireless no doubt, builders & mechanics will love it for the ease of installation.
But wireless it has to Work 100% hence Shimano's conservative wired approach. Can't have comm-drop to the 28 cog on the Tourmalet can we?

As a PMP (Retired) the integration of formerly disparate data/systems can form a very powerful illuminative system with far reaching consequences.

Data acquisition as a profit tool for Shimano and the other players as well as a "training aid" is the model.
Connect to Xbox 2 and have at it with no road rash consequences ! Only for "Gold" $$$$ members!
Log onto Web Coach with your monthly fee and get your update.

As an old bike racer what really matters is a Racer willing to put in the long hard miles in a solid program and have at it with a Will season after season.

It's not about the Hardware, and now not about the Software and Never has been.

-Bandera

Heathpack 

I would pretty much agree. In my limited experience in the world of cycling, I think there's two kinds of people who adopt technologically advanced things: 1. people who are trying to accomplish something and see the technological advancement as a means to that end and 2. people who adopt the technology for no discernible reason, I think at times it's an attempt to just have the right stuff from a style perspective or perhaps to emulate the former type of people without really understanding how the tools are being used.

However, from a sales & marketing perspective, you really want to sell to both groups. Personally I'm not seeing anything in wireless shifting that would improve my cycling, which is in contrast to how I see mechanical vs electronic shifting. (Admittedly though I haven't really given wireless shifting much thought.).

When I say that Shimano is behind the curve, mostly what I meant is that SRAM created a desire for something new, worthwhile or not. So they get all the attention for now. I'm just surprised they got the jump on Shimano like this.

The whole virtual cycling thing just perplexed me last winter. What? Riding out in the world is just so much better. But it's easy to say that when you live in SoCal. I'd probably do the same thing if I lived where weather forced me off the bike for part of the year.

Heathpack 

I made the Monday night ride earlier this week, which is supposed to be an easy recovery thing. Mostly it was, but in the middle of the ride, things got a little testosterone-y and I was at the time thinking WTF? Why does this seem so hard? But also it was kind of cool because it wasn't that hard to hang until we got to a section with a pretty good headwind and it was taking 130% effort to stay attached. So screw that, time for a little solo TT threshold interval into the wind until I caught up at the regroup and everything went back to being a mellow Monday night ride.

Then I got home and see that all 5 guys I was riding with PRed at least part of that middle section of the ride. Lol, so it wasn't just me, it was hard for them too. Sweet.

Today just riding around on the TT bike with a girlfriend who used to be way faster than me but then I became faster than her except on hills. Bam, today I was just jamming up every hill, passing her without even feeling like I was trying too hard.

Just been feeling kind of mighty on the bike lately. Mostly its that I'm much better at spiking my power output lately- so holding a wheel at 20 mph or popping up a short hill is just no big deal. Good feeling.

PS And feeling mighty while climbing on a road bike is one thing. Feeling mighty while climbing in aero on the TT bike- well, that's something way more triumphant.

valygrl

I think colorado training camp can get some credit?

So, I've been pretty quiet lately. Some of you know this - I crashed on a training ride last month and gave myself a concussion. It took a couple of weeks to feel ok after that (had some cognitive problems, scary!!) and then I had a business trip, a cold and another business trip. Haven't raced or even formally trained for over a month, although I've been riding.

Today was my first day back actually training in a month. I had Pyramid intervals, and they hurt appropriately. Glad to be back at it!!

Hermes

PRed hmmm Prednisone... nah can't be what she means. PRed is probably a racing club. No that does not make sense either. Duh...set a PR.

My wife is racing the Hurricane Hillclimb on Saturday. She wanted to ride up Kings Mountain and I said, sure, I will ride up with you.

I decided to do over / unders on the way up. I had no idea what to set the target power so I rode the overs hard. I kept the unders fairly hard and in fact they felt easy. I looked and realized that someone had stolen my chain. Theoretically, I was pacing a higher FTP than I had done previously when I actually tested for it. If I would have know I had this much aerobic capacity, I would have ridden the entire team pursuit on Sunday.

Okay, I am going to enter the Hurricane Hillclimb Time Trial. It makes total sense for a 500 m guy to race a TT with mountain top finish. Now which age group. 55+ has Metcalfe and 60+ has Anderson.

Metcalfe...Anderson...Metcalfe...Anderson...Metcalfe...Anderson...Metcalfe...Anderson...Metcalfe...A nderson



60+ it is. The last time I raced with Anderson, he passed me riding his TT bike with a disc up Mount Diablo.

Heathpack 

I was just this morning on the train deciding that I was going to ping you to see where you've been lately, if something was wrong. Nice to see you back- on the bike and on BF.

If this is a Colorado training effect, I'm coming to ride with y'all every year. The difference has been for sure since coming home from the trip, pretty much every ride feels great. But I've also changed things a bit nutritionally, not calorie restricting right now. Whatever is going on, I'll take it.

Heathpack 

Good days for everybody!

LAJ

It's good to see you back, @valygrl. Scary indeed, and it's tough to deal with, on many levels.

I'm glad you're OK!

Racer Ex 

@valygrl, glad you're feeling better.