delbiker1 

I ride almost all good pavement. All but one of my bikes has dual sided, spd pedals. I prefer them over spd-sl simply because I get off the bike more than I used to, and that involves steps, which spd-sl are not good for. I have a Fuji Ace that recently rebuilt as a 1 X drivetrain and wide flat pedals with studs. With shoes that have soles that catch the studs, the foot is solidly anchored in regards to fore and aft, and sideways movement. I have yet to have a foot slip off the pedal, unintended. I am actually a bit surprised by how well they work, and how much I like them. I will leave flats on it as I often just use street style apparel and shoes when I ride it. The way I ride these days, really not a lot of difference between the two, except for releasing the cleats from the pedals.

Broctoon

You can ride harder (more physical effort) or easier with any type of pedal. For many people, clipless pedals encourage a stronger effort. They will not make you go faster or make your ride more difficult. You do that yourself.

The discussion about pulling up results from the belief, held by many, that pedals with any type of effective foot retention will let you employ your muscles throughout the crank's entire circle. Obviously you have to unload the pedal at the back of the circle to allow it to come up. There's no reason to even debate that. The question is whether you can exert significant force on the upstroke, and therefore ride faster. Scientific studies have shown that riders don't produce much force (which translates to power when factored together with cadence) at the back of the crank's circle. They may feel they are, or may attempt to do so. Physiology makes it difficult and inefficient. With acknowledgement of this, I still insist I can put out more power, through a combination of increased pedaling force and cadence, with clipless pedals. Perhaps it's because I am able to push harder on the downstroke with safety and confidence. Perhaps the solid connection to my bike makes me able to employ a wide range of muscle groups, from my hands and arms, through my torso, to all parts of my legs, albeit with only slight contributions from some groups.

When I ride one of my bikes with clipless pedals, I ride faster. I get a tougher and therefore more effective workout. The pedals themselves didn't directly cause this. They encouraged me to push more aggressively, which I made a deliberate choice to do. They helped the bike reward my efforts by giving me a more secure interface, which can improve my bike handling, which in turn makes me want to ride hard.

Calsun

Going up a hill I can put more pressure on a greater percentage of the pedal down stroke or rotation without fear of my foot slipping off the pedal. The flat pedals used primarily for mountain bikes on dirt trails make use of pins sticking up from the pedals and bike shoes with special soles for the same purpose, keeping the shoe on the pedal. The mountain bike pedals are not as effective as clip-in shoes but they allow for shifting the foot position on the pedals when going through rough country.

CliffordK

After one hits say 100 or 150 miles, it is kind of nice to have one's feet attached to the pedals as one vainly attempts to keep the cranks rotating.

Also, late in a ride, I may start pulling up some as it uses different muscle groups, especially when I need a little extra power and there is none left in the tank.

Mtracer

I'm sure I've heard of studies showing that clipped in or not, there's not any efficiency advantage to either. However, I much prefer being clipped in. If nothing else, I don't have to expend any effort to keep my feet on the pedals. This is most helpful at very high cadences where my legs are more flailing than anything else. I agree with all the others saying it gives them more confidence when applying power.

I don't think there is any downside to being clipped in in terms of power and efficiency. Of course, being clipped in can cause you some issues getting unclipped. For me, that's if I use new cleats and forget they take a lot more effort to unclip. My worn in cleats allow me to pop off with little effort. I've only fallen once due to not getting unclipped in time. It was an unexpected stop and brand new cleats and literally the first time I tried to unclip. I've had one other time where maybe if I weren't clipped in I could have gotten a foot down in time to keep from going over when I was going very slowly on very loose gravel.

I'm also sure there's been a few times on my MTB where had I not been clipped in, I might have lost my balance with my foot coming off a pedal on very rough terrain.

One thing for me though, is SPD (MTB style) cleats is all I use. I tried some Look/Keo (?) style and getting clipped in was ridiculously difficult. Also, I like bike shoes I can walk in.

79pmooney

+1 I don't do the rough stuff but I do take it for granted my foot is staying on the pedal through anything. A great advantage of full retention and the practice of powering through the circle (no, not as a uniform effort but with as little "dead time" as possible) is that you have trained your muscles to carry you through on a ride you have to finish even though the big quads cannot. Injury? Tried to follow that guy? Whatever. I have ridden miles "deleting" the downstroke. Yes, slower and harder but it beats the sag wagon. Of course I regularly come here and get reminded what what I just did to get home is impossible.

PeteHski

To keep your feet firmly in the optimum position on the pedals, with no risk of slipping off.

The pulling up is a big floppy red herring. The best you can do there is unweight your leg on the upstroke to reduce the negative torque from its own weight on the pedal. Not even pro cyclists generate any significant positive torque on their upstroke.

You can also unweight your leg on the upstroke with flat pedals too. In fact you will find it almost impossible to lift your foot off the pedal during the upstroke - which demonstrates that you are not actually pulling on the pedal when clipped in.

There are a few edge cases where you might actually pull a bit on the pedals eg. A standing start big gear sprint or a very steep climb at very low cadence out of the saddle when you have run out of gears.

phughes

Gee, I rode across Indiana and Ohio on flat pedals. I survived. I cannot imagine doing that ride with clipless pedals. I like being able to shift my feet around on a 70 mile day, and another 50 mile day the next day, and a 60 mile day the next day, and so on. Good pedals with good grip, and you will have no issues. My foot stuck in one position all day, every day, nope.

79pmooney

I have uncleated traditional slotted cleats hundreds of times on the upstroke when I haven't tightened the straps. In straight line steady state riding. Yeah, I know; it didn't really happen. Nevertheless, I still have to scoot my foot around to get that pedal back into the slot. Pull the strap tight and it doesn't happen again. If I consciously pull up on the upstroke with loose straps, I lift right off. Any time, any speed. Not even a challenge.

Eric F 

Cool that you found what works for you. What type of shoes did you use?

For me, a rigid-soled shoe with properly-shaped insoles is important, so pressure is on my whole foot, not just on the pedal. Likewise, foot placement on the pedal (fore/aft, rotation) is critical to me for staying efficient and pain-free on long days. A little rotational float has also proven useful for me.

It turns out those guys who ride around European countries for 3 weeks at a time do okay being clipped in every day. 😜

raceboy

Advantage of clipless to me when I first wore them was the mostly psychological feeling of feeling mechanically connected to the bike and more efficient. Now with arthritic knees and inching ever closer to knee replacement, the clipless keeps my feet securely in place and not shifting on the pedal resulting in twinges if I ride out of the saddle or riding in a higher/torquier gear.

Yes. I made up a new word. Torquier.

PeteHski

I guess you would disagree with all this:-

https://bythlon.com/pages/the-myth-of-the-upstroke

https://gearandgrit.com/the-cycling-...aling-circles/

https://www.crimsonperformance.com/b...power%20output.

https://roadcyclinguk.com/riding/bik...-upstroke.html

https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/fit...n-your-pedals/

https://www.cyclefit.co.uk/journal/c...ling-technique

Of course you can actively pull up on your pedals if you think it's a great idea.

Hermes

I assume you are describing the steel cleats that were nailed to the bottom of cycling shoes and inserted into pedals with toe cages fitted with tightening straps. I had those in the 70s/80s and found them okay but not great, a hassle to tighten and un tighten and occasionally pull my foot out. Plus tightening the strap put pressure on the top of my foot.

Clipless pedals were substantially better than the old retention systems, as you pointed out. At the track, many track sprinters use both clipless retention and toe straps to make sure that they cannot pull out of the pedal for any reason due to the high cadence, high power fixed gear nature of track sprinting.

_ForceD_

I didn’t read the entire thread, so I’m not sure if this was brought up. But my response is this: First, when I made the switch from toe clips to clipless (many years ago during the infancy of clipless) I was pleasantly stunned at the comfort improvement. Previously, tightening the strap of the toe clips caused my toes to go numb on long rides. That doesn’t happen with clipless pedals. Secondly, many of the comments above talk about “pushing down” and “pulling up” on the pedals. The most sensible thing I’ve read about pedaling…whether it’s with toe clips or with clipless pedals…and seems to make the most sense to me…is that you should concentrate on pedaling in complete circles, and not up and down. In other words trying to achieve positive pressure on the pedal throughout its entire revolution.

Dan

gecho

Consistent foot position is a big benefit for me. With flat pedals after putting my foot on the pedal it frequently doesn't feel right, so I end up having to make small adjustments until my foot is in the right spot. Some shoe tread patterns may not mesh well with the pedals making positioning more difficult. With clipless my foot is in the right spot every time.

They make stop and go riding easier since you can reset the pedals to a starting orientation by simply lifting the non-resting foot instead of having to take that foot off the pedal, put it under the pedal to push it up, then put that foot back on the pedal.

Foot retention is nice for rough roads so your foot doesn't get bounced off a pedal. Also I'm a high RPM rider, 100 rpm is a normal cruising cadence for me, it can drift up to 110 when my legs get tired, 120-130 when I'm giving it on a seated climb so I don't need my foot slipping off at those RPMs.

I can't speak for any performance improvement, but it wouldn't concern me if there wasn't any.

Iride01 

If you are only riding a 5 mile loop, then are you even going to be riding fast? To me, the whole concept of your use of a 5 mile loop sort of just brings up riding around a few of the nearby neighborhoods. So is doing it faster really even a thing?

Eric F 

Maybe he rides that loop more than once in a row. Just guessing.

Near me is a 3.1-mile loop that goes around the Rose Bowl stadium, parking lots, and adjacent golf course. It's a very popular place to ride bikes because it is uninterrupted (no stop signs or traffic signals), and the elevation changes are pretty mild. Tuesday and Thursday evenings, there is a large group ride of fast guys and gals that uses this loop as a training ride - 10 laps. It usually takes just over an hour. I don't recall ever seeing anyone using flat pedals.

Iride01 

Yes, you are just guessing. I might have guessed that too. But I chose the other. Let's wait and see if the OP adds to this.

I wouldn't be surprised if you are correct, but I felt it might prod the OP to give some more useful information about their riding type and reasons for even wanting to ask this question. I forgot that it also prods the masses.

phughes

I use DMR V12 magnesium pedals, but any large platform pedal with pins work well for me. I like the large platform since it distributes the load over a larger area of my foot, making them more comfortable, and making it possible to use any shoe. For my last two tours I wore... Crocs. The first pair of Crocs I wore were their Off-Road version. The second one was in their Swiftwater line, and were very stiff. I actually prefer the more flexible models for riding though. There really is no need for a really stiff sole when using large platform pedals, but a stiff sole is definitely needed when using a tiny clipless pedal. Your sole is actually part of the pedal.

I can ride all day with a large platform pedal, with Crocs, or a basic running shoe, or Vans, and be pain free. In fact, I prefer them to clipless since I can move around on the pedal. The pins stick very well to the shoes or Crocs, so zero issues with sliding. There are no hotspots on the foot since the load is distributed over a large area. When stopping, I can simply walk away comfortably, with no issues with traction since I have regular shoes or Crocs. The Crocs are great on tour since after a heavy downpour, they dry in minutes. No soggy feet.

Of course guys ride around Europe for weeks using clipless. Of course they are racing, and I am not. I will also venture to guess that I am much more comfortable while riding than they are, as they aren't as concerned with comfort as they are speed and efficiency, along with aerodynamics. Any comparison between the average rider and them is really a non-point. It's like when I was talking to Scott Russell, a former Superbike champion regarding riding a sport bike and the comfort of it. He said that of course they are uncomfortable for long rides, but said he isn't on it for a long time, he is racing. Yes he may go 200 miles on it, but it doesn't take as long to go 200 miles on the track compared to the street, and 200 miles on the road is usually a gas stop for many riders, and not the end of the ride. In other words, a person racing in the Tour de France has a completely different set of needs than the average rider, and they put up with discomfort along the way. They are also much more conditioned than the average rider, so trying to jam an average rider into the fit of the elite professional rider is absurd.

Eric F 

Great that you found something that works well for you and the way you ride.

Don't discount the importance of foot comfort for pro racers. You can't perform at a peak level, 6+ hours a day, for weeks in a row, if your feet hurt. There is a long history of pro riders putting a lot of thought and effort into finding the right shoes - light AND comfortable.

bkelly

Personally, I find clip on just safer. My foot never slides around, and I never have to think about where it is. I find that most important when standing, such as when climbing. If you often need to ride then walk, the toe traps would be good. (I don't know the proper name, but it is connected to and stays on the pedals and does not allow the foot to go too far forward.)

Eric F 

The term is "toe clips". They are usually paired with "toe straps". The term "clipless" refers to pedals with mechanical shoe retention, but do not have "toe clips".

bkelly

Thank you.

phughes

I'm not discounting it, just saying what they require, and what a day to day bike ride requires are two different things. Their fit level is also much different than the average bicyclist. As a result what works for the elite bicyclist will not necessarily be the best thing for the average bicyclist. You can ride long distance, very well, and with great comfort without using clipless pedals, in fact many of do so. You will find many bike tourist using flat pedals. We ride long rides, every day. We do 70 miles and get up and do it again the next day, over and over, with heavy bikes and loads. We are constantly giggling at roadies who count grams and call one day riding 50-70 miles long ride.

Flat pedals work very well. Clipless are not necessary for most riders, but those who want to race can benefit from them, and yes, some bike tourists use them. I commented initially because someone made the ridiculous statement that they couldn't imagine riding long distance without clipless. Ridiculous.

Eric F 

Please understand that I’m not discounting what works for you, nor am I saying that you should make a change.

Although I wasn’t the one who said it before, I also couldn’t imagine riding long distance, for multiple days, without clipless pedals. Mostly because that is what I have been comfortable and familiar with for a long time, and I’ve put some effort into making sure my shoes are comfortable for me for long hours, and have the high performance I want for efficiency. I recently did a 6-hour gravel event. When I finished, one of the few parts of my body that didn’t hurt were my feet, despite being in very rigid, carbon fiber soled shoes, and some sections of walking the bike on the course. This is what works for me. There is nothing ridiculous about it.