Caliper vs disc brakes on road bike?
11-22-19, 12:46 PM
#51
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I am not contending rim brakes work as well in the rain as best state of art discs in top condition. They don't. Good rim brakes are enough to do the job. Will absolutely require more effort from rider. Which is not a bad thing. Riding in the rain a rider should be on maximum alert to remain safe. Not many have ever been on brakes that good. Best rim brakes are way closer to average discs than is imagined. Industry was lazy for years and quit doing anything to improve rim brakes. When discs finally started to take off the decision was to ignore rim brakes entirely. Rim brakes could be much better for much less effort than has been dumped into discs. Most important would be getting the brakes to work out of the box. Quality assembly. And that would apply just as much to discs.
Almost every rider I know who has discs has problem after problem. A few go to the LBS weekly or more often for a year or more before finally getting tolerable function. The other way to handle the problem is to make that bike a garage ornament. Which is already the simple majority of bikes, discs have aggravated that. The exception to constant problems would be very new top end Shimano brakes. Those are getting easier to manage. Or at least often they are largely trouble free. You think it's been bolt on and ride for a decade. How many different systems of bolting on have there been in past decade? Do we have standardization yet? I can't see standardization from here. Nor have I heard that much reduction in constant rubbing.
Simple stuff like parking a bike on a rack is hard on discs. Discs are going on every new bike and they aren't ready. Any bike at all can be damaged parked on a rack, discs are just way more vulnerable.
I know what a U-brake is. Apparently you don't know what brazed CP is. OK, there aren't many of them, not surprising you wouldn't know.
Through axles have only been standard and automatic for what, two years. Also only about two years since sponsors bludgeoned the last CX pro with rim brakes into using beta discs. The CX pros who wanted to stay with rim brakes had reasons, good ones. They saw the majority of the competition on discs and didn't want to go there. It wasn't that they didn't want to win.
The big sales point for discs has always been powerful braking for trivial effort. Most riders don't ride much in rain, few wear out rims. It's the instant gratification that sells the brakes. Is it even a good idea to have that much instant brake? In a panic situation it might just be a good idea to have to work hard to brake. On a long descent discs mean forearms do not get so pumped, hands do not get so tired. Every other part of the body gets worked hard though. Should those with weak hands be encouraged to do long fast descents at all? I don't think so. Sounds more to me like a way for the unprepared to get in over their heads. I am way out of step for thinking it is not always a good idea to make riding easy. And then I see someone who has been trained to believe their brakes are perfect who just got instant and total brake fade.
And most of the discussion of all these points sounds like ad copy. Ad copy does not impress.
Almost every rider I know who has discs has problem after problem. A few go to the LBS weekly or more often for a year or more before finally getting tolerable function. The other way to handle the problem is to make that bike a garage ornament. Which is already the simple majority of bikes, discs have aggravated that. The exception to constant problems would be very new top end Shimano brakes. Those are getting easier to manage. Or at least often they are largely trouble free. You think it's been bolt on and ride for a decade. How many different systems of bolting on have there been in past decade? Do we have standardization yet? I can't see standardization from here. Nor have I heard that much reduction in constant rubbing.
Simple stuff like parking a bike on a rack is hard on discs. Discs are going on every new bike and they aren't ready. Any bike at all can be damaged parked on a rack, discs are just way more vulnerable.
I know what a U-brake is. Apparently you don't know what brazed CP is. OK, there aren't many of them, not surprising you wouldn't know.
Through axles have only been standard and automatic for what, two years. Also only about two years since sponsors bludgeoned the last CX pro with rim brakes into using beta discs. The CX pros who wanted to stay with rim brakes had reasons, good ones. They saw the majority of the competition on discs and didn't want to go there. It wasn't that they didn't want to win.
The big sales point for discs has always been powerful braking for trivial effort. Most riders don't ride much in rain, few wear out rims. It's the instant gratification that sells the brakes. Is it even a good idea to have that much instant brake? In a panic situation it might just be a good idea to have to work hard to brake. On a long descent discs mean forearms do not get so pumped, hands do not get so tired. Every other part of the body gets worked hard though. Should those with weak hands be encouraged to do long fast descents at all? I don't think so. Sounds more to me like a way for the unprepared to get in over their heads. I am way out of step for thinking it is not always a good idea to make riding easy. And then I see someone who has been trained to believe their brakes are perfect who just got instant and total brake fade.
And most of the discussion of all these points sounds like ad copy. Ad copy does not impress.
11-22-19, 01:00 PM
#53
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You had me second guess myself there. I looked it up and 'Braze-on cetre-pulls' are in fact identical to U brakes of the 80s, which are also identical in function to the 70s centrepulls like Mafac Racers, which are not good brakes - maybe better than the single-pivot side-pulls of that era, but about as good at stopping a bike as center-pull cantilever brakes, but with significant disadvantages. V brakes blow all these out of the water. Modern discs are superior, and I see only 'retro style' as a reason to take three step backwards to U brakes.
11-22-19, 01:32 PM
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Blaming marketing departments for the increase of disc brakes on high-end bikes is overly simplistic. People have accepted disc brakes because they work really well. Why people are resistant to accepting brakes that work better in all conditions is odd but to each there own. Obviously there will be people who don't want to change and there will always be choices available for them.
11-22-19, 01:37 PM
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If it really takes 50+ visits to the shop to get disc brakes to work, you have a lot of dumb cyclists and a lot of bad mechanics in your town.
11-22-19, 01:42 PM
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11-22-19, 01:45 PM
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11-22-19, 01:59 PM
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11-22-19, 02:17 PM
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If you want one bike to do it all, road, gravel, combination of both then I can see the advantage of being able to go from 25 or 28 to 32 or even 40 tires as needed but I was referring to road bikes and most caliper brakes will work with up to 28's...and I cant see any advantage in anything wider than that for the road.
Buying a frame that can't clear bigger than 28s at this point seems idiotic to me.
11-22-19, 02:19 PM
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11-22-19, 02:25 PM
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Kapusta - Totally understand the benefit of wide, but if you raced your road bike you wouldn't race on 32's
Lienister - I agree, bike makers decide what they want us to buy and reinforce it with endless marketing data
Velopig - Not true, no matter what the bike makers tell you - rim brakes work just as well (and have much better feel) unless, as I said early on, its raining or if you are riding substandard carbon wheels
Lienister - I agree, bike makers decide what they want us to buy and reinforce it with endless marketing data
Velopig - Not true, no matter what the bike makers tell you - rim brakes work just as well (and have much better feel) unless, as I said early on, its raining or if you are riding substandard carbon wheels
11-22-19, 02:46 PM
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OK, I'm in
11-22-19, 03:35 PM
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11-22-19, 03:42 PM
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No I group ride, train and race on the same bike with the same wheels and tires... and I plan to do the same when I get the new bike - I am planning on HED Ardennes Black wheels and Continental GP 5000 25's. Currently riding on HED Ardennes SL wheels (slightly narrower than the Ardennes black) so I ride on 23 tires
11-22-19, 04:03 PM
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No I group ride, train and race on the same bike with the same wheels and tires... and I plan to do the same when I get the new bike - I am planning on HED Ardennes Black wheels and Continental GP 5000 25's. Currently riding on HED Ardennes SL wheels (slightly narrower than the Ardennes black) so I ride on 23 tires
You are not interested in understanding why people choose discs, only in justifying your own preference.
Your preference is fine, you don’t need our validation. Whatever floats your boat.
Last edited by Kapusta; 11-22-19 at 04:51 PM.
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11-22-19, 04:59 PM
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Disagree - I wasn't looking for justification. Don't need that. I was saying, from the beginning, disc brakes add rotating weight (bad) and cost (bad) but don't really perform any better with the two exceptions that I stated. So, why pay hundreds more and add weight? that was the original premise of my post.
And as far as post 38 is concerned - I totally agree...but I didn't bring that up - discs are high maintenance
And as far as post 38 is concerned - I totally agree...but I didn't bring that up - discs are high maintenance
11-22-19, 05:28 PM
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Will start with the false premise that rim brakes modulate better than disc. You are plain wrong, hydraulic brakes modulate with a clean linear feel unlike cable actuated brakes.
Your rotating weight theory is also faulty since disc specific rims have less mass as they don’t need a brake track and thus reducing rotating mass.
23mm tires are not faster when riding outdoors on normal roads.
Brakes need to work at all times even when its raining or the rims are wet.
Substandard or top of the line rim brakes are a pain with carbon wheels. Problematic to switch between race and training wheels. Performance changes as the rim heats as in a long descent. Terrible wet performance.
Your rotating weight theory is also faulty since disc specific rims have less mass as they don’t need a brake track and thus reducing rotating mass.
23mm tires are not faster when riding outdoors on normal roads.
Brakes need to work at all times even when its raining or the rims are wet.
Substandard or top of the line rim brakes are a pain with carbon wheels. Problematic to switch between race and training wheels. Performance changes as the rim heats as in a long descent. Terrible wet performance.
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11-22-19, 09:45 PM
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Disagree - I wasn't looking for justification. Don't need that. I was saying, from the beginning, disc brakes add rotating weight (bad) and cost (bad) but don't really perform any better with the two exceptions that I stated. So, why pay hundreds more and add weight? that was the original premise of my post.
And as far as post 38 is concerned - I totally agree...but I didn't bring that up - discs are high maintenance
And as far as post 38 is concerned - I totally agree...but I didn't bring that up - discs are high maintenance
You wrote that you were “trying to understand the why the whole road bike world is going disc”... but in fact you are not trying to understand.
11-22-19, 10:59 PM
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If I were buying a new road bike, it would be rim brakes. A new gravel bike, it would be disc. 
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nine mile skid on a ten mile ride
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11-23-19, 07:56 AM
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11-23-19, 08:16 AM
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So you've either never used discs, or they're high maintenance-- which is it? I put in more miles than many on here, and have touched my disc brakes twice in 2019. I bleed the calipers in April, and the service interval came up in the beginning of November when I replaced my rotors-- they lasted a paltry 17,220 miles. AFAIC, nothing on a bicycle is "high maintenance" aside from the tires, whose pressure has to be checked before every ride.
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11-23-19, 10:36 AM
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DrIsotope,
Nope, I don't have a disc brake road bike, but I have many club friends that I ride with on a regular basis that do - some complain about rubbing and alignment and some don't.
Nope, I don't have a disc brake road bike, but I have many club friends that I ride with on a regular basis that do - some complain about rubbing and alignment and some don't.