Trek 920
#101
Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Oh heck I'll beat that horse on its other side. I really don't care what folks pull together, some set ups are brilliant , some make do, some revel in coordinating colors and others like to stick out. Everyone gets to figure out what works for them.
My beef is marketing performance designs in in a non performance application. If the bike has 28 spoke wheels then have "adventure" gear appropriate for that. Maybe a trippy medium sized frame bag for carrying "adventure" gear but still allow an over the shoulder carry. Or a minimalist front rack with monogrammed dry bags strapped down with monogrammed and Patented Adventure Gear Retention System. Once they included that big beefy front rack with the nice rear rack the implication is a four pannier carrying beast of a bicycle with a front rack capable of carrying firewood on top.
So instead of selling a bike with three pounds of racks and performance oriented low spoke count wheels sell it with 12oz. of "cool, a quick release gear bag for first aid, energy bars, SPOT, small tablet, sheath knife and bear spray!"
But build heavy duty wheels. It'll be lighter, "for performance!" with better profit/bike and for those who like to carry the kitchen sink it'll have a better margin or error.
My beef is marketing performance designs in in a non performance application. If the bike has 28 spoke wheels then have "adventure" gear appropriate for that. Maybe a trippy medium sized frame bag for carrying "adventure" gear but still allow an over the shoulder carry. Or a minimalist front rack with monogrammed dry bags strapped down with monogrammed and Patented Adventure Gear Retention System. Once they included that big beefy front rack with the nice rear rack the implication is a four pannier carrying beast of a bicycle with a front rack capable of carrying firewood on top.
So instead of selling a bike with three pounds of racks and performance oriented low spoke count wheels sell it with 12oz. of "cool, a quick release gear bag for first aid, energy bars, SPOT, small tablet, sheath knife and bear spray!"
But build heavy duty wheels. It'll be lighter, "for performance!" with better profit/bike and for those who like to carry the kitchen sink it'll have a better margin or error.
#103
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,261
Bikes: Salsa Vaya
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 172 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I foolishly posted without reading the entire thread first. Now that I have, I think I'll change it to this ...
Last edited by asmac; 02-09-16 at 07:19 PM.
#104
Banned.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,077
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 760 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Several people are making serious assumptions about Trek's marketing dept and their engineering dept. And leveling attacks based completely on opinion with zero facts to back them up. Enough already. I've checked out every one of your concerns that you have raised. Looked at all the bicycles you suggested, I rode an LHT. I have gotten as many facts that I could collect. I'm satisfied with it as a good bicycle. I don't want a bicycle that weighs 1/2 as much as it should. Where are their engineers that should be testing their stuff? I called Trek to state your concerns about the 28* wheels. Lower spoke wheels have been getting stronger over the years. Deeper rims, double walled might be part of it, shorter stronger spokes my be part as well, or so I'm told. I asked Trek for a response to your concerns. Customer service promised an appropriate person would get back to me, ASAP.
Enough already!! Drop it!!
The fight is over.
P.S. I asked for a brifter version, and also asked for a carbon version. I wonder if they will do either.
Enough already!! Drop it!!
The fight is over.
P.S. I asked for a brifter version, and also asked for a carbon version. I wonder if they will do either.
Last edited by Squeezebox; 02-09-16 at 07:35 PM.
#105
Senior Member
Several people are making serious assumptions about Trek's marketing dept and their engineering dept. And leveling attacks based completely on opinion with zero facts to back them up. Enough already. I've checked out every one of your concerns that you have raised. Looked at all the bicycles you suggested, I rode an LHT. I have gotten as many facts that I could collect. I'm satisfied with it as a good bicycle. I don't want a bicycle that weighs 1/2 as much as it should. Where are their engineers that should be testing their stuff? I called Trek to state your concerns about the 28* wheels. Lower spoke wheels have been getting stronger over the years. Deeper rims, double walled might be part of it, shorter stronger spokes my be part as well, or so I'm told. I asked Trek for a response to your concerns. Customer service promised an appropriate person would get back to me, ASAP.
Enough already!! Drop it!!
The fight is over.
The fight is over.
Last edited by elcruxio; 02-10-16 at 01:26 AM.
#107
Senior Member
axed the salesman, and he said "don't worry, mate, our bikes be da
bestest!.......now about that undercoating..."
i am properly chastened. TFSM forbid i question salemen or engineers!
does that mean my VW diesel really meets emission standards?
#108
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Left Coast, Canada
Posts: 5,126
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2236 Post(s)
Liked 1,314 Times
in
707 Posts
I'm not sure why, but I can't read past LeeG's post except in post preview mode. Weird?
I think someone needs to realize that people are discussing design features without getting all defensive about a bike. What fight? I suspect it's symptomatic of the perception that the bike will somehow define the person, thus criticism of it - is criticism of them. I don't even see it as criticism of his bike because technically, it's not your bike until you actually buy it
We are discussing spokes and axles. I'm kinda wondering how the spokes got shorter on a 28" rim when 32-36 spokes are sought for 26" mtb rims?
I think someone needs to realize that people are discussing design features without getting all defensive about a bike. What fight? I suspect it's symptomatic of the perception that the bike will somehow define the person, thus criticism of it - is criticism of them. I don't even see it as criticism of his bike because technically, it's not your bike until you actually buy it
We are discussing spokes and axles. I'm kinda wondering how the spokes got shorter on a 28" rim when 32-36 spokes are sought for 26" mtb rims?
#109
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: The banks of the River Charles
Posts: 2,030
Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease, 2020 Seven Evergreen, 2019 Honey Allroads Ti, 2018 Seven Redsky XX, 2017 Trek Boon 7, 2014 Trek 520
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 696 Post(s)
Liked 910 Times
in
487 Posts
Is the 720 any good? I almost considered it as a fast and lighter day touring stablemate to my 520.
#110
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,205
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 81 Times
in
64 Posts
Read the comments
Review: Trek 720 Disc light adventure touring
Any experience with spokes breaking on new Trek 720 touring bike - Bicycles Stack Exchange
Last edited by LeeG; 02-10-16 at 03:31 PM.
#111
Senior Member
Looks great, and it has 24 spoke wheels!
Read the comments
Review: Trek 720 Disc light adventure touring
Read the comments
Review: Trek 720 Disc light adventure touring
#112
Banned.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,077
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 760 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Looks great, and it has 24 spoke wheels!
Read the comments
Review: Trek 720 Disc light adventure touring
Any experience with spokes breaking on new Trek 720 touring bike - Bicycles Stack Exchange
Read the comments
Review: Trek 720 Disc light adventure touring
Any experience with spokes breaking on new Trek 720 touring bike - Bicycles Stack Exchange
By the way my Giant around town bicycle broke 2 spokes the 1st month. They replaced the wheel no problems since, but yes shouldn't happen to begin with.
There are a few CC/ fast tour carbon bicycles worth looking at. Simular geometry and gearing
Last edited by Squeezebox; 02-10-16 at 06:17 PM.
#113
Senior Member
#114
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: San Antonio TX
Posts: 799
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 152 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Ouch! Aluminum frame and rigid fork?
Perhaps aluminum frames and forks have improved by leaps and bounds I dunno but I just think that thing would beat me to death off-road. In fact I'm having flashbacks to my previous rigid mountain bikes 15-20 years back, fattest tires I could find back then (2.2?) notwithstanding.
I LOVE the compliant ride on my steel-framed '89 Schwinn Voyageur, in fact I think I'd rather take IT down a dirt/gravel road than the rigid Mt. bikes I had.
JMHO,
Mike
#115
Senior Member
Ouch! Aluminum frame and rigid fork?
Perhaps aluminum frames and forks have improved by leaps and bounds I dunno but I just think that thing would beat me to death off-road. In fact I'm having flashbacks to my previous rigid mountain bikes 15-20 years back, fattest tires I could find back then (2.2?) notwithstanding.
I LOVE the compliant ride on my steel-framed '89 Schwinn Voyageur, in fact I think I'd rather take IT down a dirt/gravel road than the rigid Mt. bikes I had.
JMHO,
Mike
#116
Senior Member
do these yahoos reviewing touring bikes have any touring experience?
24 spokes on a touring bike?
"...This is a bike designed to be loaded down..."
and take that load uphill?
"The 11-32-tooth, 11-speed cassette offers low enough gearing to handle long, steep climbs, and the 50/34..."
ah, i get it now....
"... become a mule on longer overnight excursions..."
and coming back to reality.......
"...just finish my trip through Europe. 7 spokes broken, 6 on the back, 1 on the front, I was carrying 25kg on the back and about 10kg on the front.
When I finished my trip, I wanted to change the wheel, however, it's a 11 gears with a disc.. Even the trek shop of my arrival city coudn't sell one to me....."
WOW!!! 2 freakin' grand for wall art!
24 spokes on a touring bike?
"...This is a bike designed to be loaded down..."
and take that load uphill?
"The 11-32-tooth, 11-speed cassette offers low enough gearing to handle long, steep climbs, and the 50/34..."
ah, i get it now....
"... become a mule on longer overnight excursions..."
and coming back to reality.......
"...just finish my trip through Europe. 7 spokes broken, 6 on the back, 1 on the front, I was carrying 25kg on the back and about 10kg on the front.
When I finished my trip, I wanted to change the wheel, however, it's a 11 gears with a disc.. Even the trek shop of my arrival city coudn't sell one to me....."
WOW!!! 2 freakin' grand for wall art!
#117
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,205
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 81 Times
in
64 Posts
Thanks for the info about the 720. It's hard to get info like wt, and spoke count from the companies.
By the way my Giant around town bicycle broke 2 spokes the 1st month. They replaced the wheel no problems since, but yes shouldn't happen to begin with.
There are a few CC/ fast tour carbon bicycles worth looking at. Simular geometry and gearing
By the way my Giant around town bicycle broke 2 spokes the 1st month. They replaced the wheel no problems since, but yes shouldn't happen to begin with.
There are a few CC/ fast tour carbon bicycles worth looking at. Simular geometry and gearing
I am confident 28 spokes is sufficient for unloaded riding with big tires. I am confident 28 spokes with a loaded bike guarantees a rear wheel replacement in a couple years. It's like deciding to putting performance tires on your automobile and being ok with them lasting 15k miles. Nothing wrong with that, look at all the performance you got.
#120
Senior Member
It's unlikely that it's more than marketing fluff. I've seen some really weird desicions done by bike companies just because it's 'cool' or more marketable, even in high end bikes. When considering wheels, if the design isn't conservative (evenly spaced spokes on the rim, enough spokes for the intended activities etc) it's more than likely that the desing is weaker than it's conservative counterpart. There's nothing special in wheelbuilding, it's actually really, really simple all in all.
There is of course a possibility that a low spoke count wheel has been built in a fashion that it has the required strength for high impact applications, but those wheels are usually very expensive, pretty much in the price range the whole 920 would cost. Those wheels usually have extra high spoke tensions and a very, very stiff rim (preferably carbon as it's way more durable than aluminum) as well as other bracing methods to make the wheel stronger. As it is however, the 720 and 920 employ affordable factory wheels, which usually is not problem at all if you have enough spokes as you can retension them completely or with any luck just do a few tension adjustments and a few extra cycles of stress relief. The bontrager rims are nothing spectacular so you'll need to be conservative with spoke tensions and with 32 or 36 spokes this is not an issue. But with less spokes as you can't push over a certain spoke tension limit you'll still have conservative spoke tension, but the peak stress (or rather, slackening) that every spoke faces is significantly higher as the spoke spacing is also much higher (this is still very basic wheel building science). This means that every spoke is at much higher risk of losing tension at every wheelspin on a loaded rig, or at least at every single small bump on the road. With more spokes you'll have more spokes taking the stress and slacking effect as the spokes are more tightly spaced. A spoke that loses enough tension at frequent enough intervals is a broken spoke quite quickly. Some of this effect can be helped with double or even triple butted spokes, but none of the spokes I've had or seen in bontrager wheels have been butted so all in all it's a SOL situation.
Theyr'e just trying to make a profit. Not to provide everyone with the best possible bike at every situation. Of course bike companies usually try to create really good bikes, but sometimes bike companies make massive mistakes. The 520 is a really solid tour bike and one of the best in the whole of Trek line, but the 720 and 920 at least this year are pretty shifty and weird really.
There is of course a possibility that a low spoke count wheel has been built in a fashion that it has the required strength for high impact applications, but those wheels are usually very expensive, pretty much in the price range the whole 920 would cost. Those wheels usually have extra high spoke tensions and a very, very stiff rim (preferably carbon as it's way more durable than aluminum) as well as other bracing methods to make the wheel stronger. As it is however, the 720 and 920 employ affordable factory wheels, which usually is not problem at all if you have enough spokes as you can retension them completely or with any luck just do a few tension adjustments and a few extra cycles of stress relief. The bontrager rims are nothing spectacular so you'll need to be conservative with spoke tensions and with 32 or 36 spokes this is not an issue. But with less spokes as you can't push over a certain spoke tension limit you'll still have conservative spoke tension, but the peak stress (or rather, slackening) that every spoke faces is significantly higher as the spoke spacing is also much higher (this is still very basic wheel building science). This means that every spoke is at much higher risk of losing tension at every wheelspin on a loaded rig, or at least at every single small bump on the road. With more spokes you'll have more spokes taking the stress and slacking effect as the spokes are more tightly spaced. A spoke that loses enough tension at frequent enough intervals is a broken spoke quite quickly. Some of this effect can be helped with double or even triple butted spokes, but none of the spokes I've had or seen in bontrager wheels have been butted so all in all it's a SOL situation.
Theyr'e just trying to make a profit. Not to provide everyone with the best possible bike at every situation. Of course bike companies usually try to create really good bikes, but sometimes bike companies make massive mistakes. The 520 is a really solid tour bike and one of the best in the whole of Trek line, but the 720 and 920 at least this year are pretty shifty and weird really.
#121
Senior Member
Neville: not quite yet, got a few more items. hey, what did our engineering team
recommend for wheels?
Melvin: silly rabbit, your forget the engineering department was outsourced to calcutta
three years ago?
Neville: oh, yeah....hey, do they even have bikes in calcutta?
Melvin: not per se.......mostly they jsut have cast iron samlors, you know, pedicabs and
delivery truck bikes.
Neville: right, so what do they know about touring bikes over there?
Melvin: not much....but they work cheap as hell.
Neville: gotcha....so they know about as much as we do. so what about these wheels?
Melvin: not really important. wheels is wheels. they're round with black bits on the outside.
just pull something from one of our other bikes.
Neville: let's see......how 'bout some wheels off the 520? plenty left over, seems
every old fart this year wants to go adventure. not as much demand for real touring bikes.
Melvin: oh, good lord, no! division will have our asses! 520 wheels have 36 spokes! spokes cost .00005 cents each! we'll never make our price point! find some 32 spoke wheels.
Neville: but melly, we've got expedition racks on this bike! customers are gonna load up
the bike and go off road! they'll implode!
Melvin: not to worry, nev. it's just illusion. our marketeers are top-notch....ain't nobody gonna
take this piece of poo off road......it's just for posing at starbucks. it's 90% certain they'll
be mounted permanantly to the roof of somebody's prius. as we all know, serious cycle
tourists will buy an LHT....cause ya know, steel is real!
Neville: ooooooooh, well in that case, why don't we just throw on some lame 28-spoke
junk. i think we have a container left over from that failed krusty the clown promotion.
Melvin: Nev, you're a genius!
Neville: Doh!
#122
Banned.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,077
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 760 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I just spent some time looking at Co-motion tandems, particularly spoke count and frame material.
Of their 5 touring models 1 uses 24 spoke wheels, that one is their most expensive tourer.
Of their 5 road tandems 4 use the 24 spoke wheels, 2 of the models are aluminum frames.
A tandem puts up with much more severe weight & stess than any touring single possibly could.
Of their 5 touring models 1 uses 24 spoke wheels, that one is their most expensive tourer.
Of their 5 road tandems 4 use the 24 spoke wheels, 2 of the models are aluminum frames.
A tandem puts up with much more severe weight & stess than any touring single possibly could.
#123
Senior Member
I just spent some time looking at Co-motion tandems, particularly spoke count and frame material.
Of their 5 touring models 1 uses 24 spoke wheels, that one is their most expensive tourer.
Of their 5 road tandems 4 use the 24 spoke wheels, 2 of the models are aluminum frames.
A tandem puts up with much more severe weight & stess than any touring single possibly could.
Of their 5 touring models 1 uses 24 spoke wheels, that one is their most expensive tourer.
Of their 5 road tandems 4 use the 24 spoke wheels, 2 of the models are aluminum frames.
A tandem puts up with much more severe weight & stess than any touring single possibly could.
#124
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,205
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 81 Times
in
64 Posts
I just spent some time looking at Co-motion tandems, particularly spoke count and frame material.
Of their 5 touring models 1 uses 24 spoke wheels, that one is their most expensive tourer.
Of their 5 road tandems 4 use the 24 spoke wheels, 2 of the models are aluminum frames.
A tandem puts up with much more severe weight & stess than any touring single possibly could.
Of their 5 touring models 1 uses 24 spoke wheels, that one is their most expensive tourer.
Of their 5 road tandems 4 use the 24 spoke wheels, 2 of the models are aluminum frames.
A tandem puts up with much more severe weight & stess than any touring single possibly could.
And yet there's those various postings about Trek 720 24 spoke wheels breaking still exist. Maybe they aren't the same wheels?
i just looked at the touring page, they all have 32 spokes.
https://co-motion.com/bikes/bikes-grid-touring
Last edited by LeeG; 02-11-16 at 08:15 AM.
#125
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,701
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11048 Post(s)
Liked 7,596 Times
in
4,236 Posts
Ill say I am surprised to see 24 spoke tandem wheels, even though they are 145 in the rear. Of course, I know nothing about tandems and you can choose to get higher spoke'd wheels from CoMotion if you they are building something for you, so my surprise is just plain ignorance on the issue.