Racing on aero road bike? Making a real difference?
02-23-16, 10:49 AM
#26
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Cav said something about losing a sprint to Kristoff while Cav was in the leader's jersey. He lost by not too much and commented that maybe wearing a skinsuit would have made a difference.
I really like his Cervelo. I guess seeing him on it is different because he's closer to my size. Seeing tall CSC guys on them, not as impressive, plus they generally ran shorter wheels.
I watched Stage 1 of Qatar, I think that's the one Cav won. It was impressive, all the aero road bikes, the tall wheels. Cav must have been running ENVE 8.9s or something, his rear wheel was enormous. I think "short" wheels in that stage would have been a 50-60mm wheel, and there were some obviously huge wheels. The aero bikes, no cables showing, sleek profile from the front... I think aero road frames/bikes are going to be standard. As you said, I don't know why people aren't using them more.
I've been super fascinated with aero road frames since I started racing. I think I still have a 1984 Miyata catalog with their aero road bike, Dura Ace AX and aero tubed frame, with "aero" Araya ADX-4 rims. Probably 6 or 7 years ago, when Felt came out with their aero road bike, and Stevens and Blue and one or two others had them, I was convinced that in a year or two everyone would be on them. I guess the learning curve (and the traditionalist road racing community) slowed that change, but it's definitely happening.
I really like his Cervelo. I guess seeing him on it is different because he's closer to my size. Seeing tall CSC guys on them, not as impressive, plus they generally ran shorter wheels.
I watched Stage 1 of Qatar, I think that's the one Cav won. It was impressive, all the aero road bikes, the tall wheels. Cav must have been running ENVE 8.9s or something, his rear wheel was enormous. I think "short" wheels in that stage would have been a 50-60mm wheel, and there were some obviously huge wheels. The aero bikes, no cables showing, sleek profile from the front... I think aero road frames/bikes are going to be standard. As you said, I don't know why people aren't using them more.
I've been super fascinated with aero road frames since I started racing. I think I still have a 1984 Miyata catalog with their aero road bike, Dura Ace AX and aero tubed frame, with "aero" Araya ADX-4 rims. Probably 6 or 7 years ago, when Felt came out with their aero road bike, and Stevens and Blue and one or two others had them, I was convinced that in a year or two everyone would be on them. I guess the learning curve (and the traditionalist road racing community) slowed that change, but it's definitely happening.
The primary difference between these bikes is the down tube - not shown. Although the Tarmac is still in a build stage you can see that the "cockpit" profile part is not all that different. The Venge has Di2 and Tarmac requires cables. I could see improvements coming with hydraulics in hiding cables. The Look 795 does a good job making them internal.
Venge:
Tarmac
02-23-16, 12:09 PM
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He said that, and while it might have been a factor. Katusha bossed DD the remaining part of that tour. If you see that stage, kristoff's teammate pushes Cav's leadout guy off the inside line and basically cav went the long way around. Katusha in their preparation looked the better side, and has looked awesome for kristoff.
02-23-16, 12:25 PM
#29
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He said that, and while it might have been a factor. Katusha bossed DD the remaining part of that tour. If you see that stage, kristoff's teammate pushes Cav's leadout guy off the inside line and basically cav went the long way around. Katusha in their preparation looked the better side, and has looked awesome for kristoff.
I posted a comment somewhere on that one of the DD leadouts. Cav's guy was Edvard Boassen Hagen and EBH actually launched the sprint after basically equaling and beating 3 of the Katusha leadout guys (who were, to be fair, on the front a bit more earlier). EBH didn't move over enough to give Cav the left curb (protected side) and at that point Cav went into the wind. He just withered out there, you could see him just dying out there. Katusha definitely looks way better organized. In one stage (first of Qatar) Cav had EBH and Farrar, and used up Farrar for a bonus sprint. Cav won that one pretty easily, and in fact when I watched it I didn't realize the finish was so close because it looked like the sprint really wasn't happening.
That stage where Kristoff won and Cav went the long way, that was Kristoff's all the way. He and his team definitely deserved that win.
In the last stage of Qatar I think it looks like Cav and Kristoff both don't really throw their bikes at the line. Cav lost but I think he thought he had it, it looked like it, but then it was like he hit a wall in the last few meters. They both looked absolutely spent because they sort of slumped over their bikes in the sprint. I think that one Cav should have won if he'd found the energy to do a proper bike throw.
Generally speaking if there's a smaller sprinter I'm a fan, because I'm smaller lol. I was a fan of Abdujaporov, McEwen, and now Cav. Also Allan Davis, who came so close to so many significant wins. There was a Z-something guy also, Spruch Zbigniew, who had some phenomenal moves/jumps but never really broke through. Small bikes also appeal to me because I can relate to them. Voigt's bike? not really. Cav's Cervelo? Yes.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
02-23-16, 12:32 PM
#30
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I posted this before but we go out of our way to get the cables out of the wind and near tubes and the housings used on the Venge are good for that.
The primary difference between these bikes is the down tube - not shown. Although the Tarmac is still in a build stage you can see that the "cockpit" profile part is not all that different. The Venge has Di2 and Tarmac requires cables. I could see improvements coming with hydraulics in hiding cables. The Look 795 does a good job making them internal.
The primary difference between these bikes is the down tube - not shown. Although the Tarmac is still in a build stage you can see that the "cockpit" profile part is not all that different. The Venge has Di2 and Tarmac requires cables. I could see improvements coming with hydraulics in hiding cables. The Look 795 does a good job making them internal.
I velcro/tape my cables onto my stem (because that's where they end up). Because of the stem angle the cables end up drafting the bar. It also makes turning the bars easier, housing doesn't get caught on brake and such.
My dream bike would have a TT type of fork, like the Slice that's currently near the end of the race bike picture thread. I'd want my stem to be in line with (or below) the top tube, because that would be where it would be height-wise for a small-as-possible head tube. eTap derailleurs. TT type brakes - I have reverse mount (back of fork) Campy brakes, considered putting them on my road bike but haven't played with it (bought them a few years ago so realistically it won't happen any time soon).
I like the Madone brake set up, it's very sweet. Also the Giant (?) with the brakes built into the fork. I think Storck has something like that also. It's not just aero, it's just clean looking. I like the internal derailleur/brake cables on my black bike because it makes wiping the bike down easier.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
02-23-16, 01:01 PM
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I'm shopping for a new frame and was thinking Tarmac (to replace my current Tarmac, which has been great). I ended up test riding a new Madone back to back with a new Tarmac and the Madone was really good. Trek claims 19 watts of savings at 40kph (and much more at higher speed/yaw), which has me really thinking about it. I've reviewed the wind tunnel "marketing" data and it sounds too good to be true.
When I'm racing, I usually spend a lot of time in the wind in breaks, chasing, or going for long primes, so I'd be very interested in buying some speed if it's real. It's a pricey frame, but within my budget and much cheaper than the new Venge.
For those that are racing with aero road bikes, do you think you are seeing those kind of gains? If anyone has specific experience with the new Madone, I'd love to hear that as well.
When I'm racing, I usually spend a lot of time in the wind in breaks, chasing, or going for long primes, so I'd be very interested in buying some speed if it's real. It's a pricey frame, but within my budget and much cheaper than the new Venge.
For those that are racing with aero road bikes, do you think you are seeing those kind of gains? If anyone has specific experience with the new Madone, I'd love to hear that as well.
02-23-16, 01:05 PM
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For sure a skinsuit or whatever only gives you a base. Race tactics and technique count for tons.
I posted a comment somewhere on that one of the DD leadouts. Cav's guy was Edvard Boassen Hagen and EBH actually launched the sprint after basically equaling and beating 3 of the Katusha leadout guys (who were, to be fair, on the front a bit more earlier). EBH didn't move over enough to give Cav the left curb (protected side) and at that point Cav went into the wind. He just withered out there, you could see him just dying out there. Katusha definitely looks way better organized. In one stage (first of Qatar) Cav had EBH and Farrar, and used up Farrar for a bonus sprint. Cav won that one pretty easily, and in fact when I watched it I didn't realize the finish was so close because it looked like the sprint really wasn't happening.
That stage where Kristoff won and Cav went the long way, that was Kristoff's all the way. He and his team definitely deserved that win.
In the last stage of Qatar I think it looks like Cav and Kristoff both don't really throw their bikes at the line. Cav lost but I think he thought he had it, it looked like it, but then it was like he hit a wall in the last few meters. They both looked absolutely spent because they sort of slumped over their bikes in the sprint. I think that one Cav should have won if he'd found the energy to do a proper bike throw.
Generally speaking if there's a smaller sprinter I'm a fan, because I'm smaller lol. I was a fan of Abdujaporov, McEwen, and now Cav. Also Allan Davis, who came so close to so many significant wins. There was a Z-something guy also, Spruch Zbigniew, who had some phenomenal moves/jumps but never really broke through. Small bikes also appeal to me because I can relate to them. Voigt's bike? not really. Cav's Cervelo? Yes.
I posted a comment somewhere on that one of the DD leadouts. Cav's guy was Edvard Boassen Hagen and EBH actually launched the sprint after basically equaling and beating 3 of the Katusha leadout guys (who were, to be fair, on the front a bit more earlier). EBH didn't move over enough to give Cav the left curb (protected side) and at that point Cav went into the wind. He just withered out there, you could see him just dying out there. Katusha definitely looks way better organized. In one stage (first of Qatar) Cav had EBH and Farrar, and used up Farrar for a bonus sprint. Cav won that one pretty easily, and in fact when I watched it I didn't realize the finish was so close because it looked like the sprint really wasn't happening.
That stage where Kristoff won and Cav went the long way, that was Kristoff's all the way. He and his team definitely deserved that win.
In the last stage of Qatar I think it looks like Cav and Kristoff both don't really throw their bikes at the line. Cav lost but I think he thought he had it, it looked like it, but then it was like he hit a wall in the last few meters. They both looked absolutely spent because they sort of slumped over their bikes in the sprint. I think that one Cav should have won if he'd found the energy to do a proper bike throw.
Generally speaking if there's a smaller sprinter I'm a fan, because I'm smaller lol. I was a fan of Abdujaporov, McEwen, and now Cav. Also Allan Davis, who came so close to so many significant wins. There was a Z-something guy also, Spruch Zbigniew, who had some phenomenal moves/jumps but never really broke through. Small bikes also appeal to me because I can relate to them. Voigt's bike? not really. Cav's Cervelo? Yes.
02-23-16, 01:08 PM
#33
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In "Faster", Hutchinson said that if he added up all the savings from equipment, he should have been 10 minutes faster in a 40K ITT but in reality was 4 minutes. I think those numbers are close without looking them up in the book. It is the rider that skews the aero performance of the equipment.
Also, when a mass moves through a fluid or air, it creates a pressure wave ahead of the mass. Airflow starts to divert to go around the rider ahead of the bike and rider thus reducing air velocity at the front of the bike. The larger the rider compared to the bike, the more the bike is taken out of the equation. A mouse on the smallest bike would not have much impact to CdA of the bike mouse combination. An elephant on a bike makes the bike very small.
Aero equipment = good but may not yield the wattage savings one thinks and it will vary from rider to rider. Aero testing of the specific rider on the bike with the specific equipment in question is the only way to know quantitatively how much energy is actually being saved. YMMV.
Also, when a mass moves through a fluid or air, it creates a pressure wave ahead of the mass. Airflow starts to divert to go around the rider ahead of the bike and rider thus reducing air velocity at the front of the bike. The larger the rider compared to the bike, the more the bike is taken out of the equation. A mouse on the smallest bike would not have much impact to CdA of the bike mouse combination. An elephant on a bike makes the bike very small.
Aero equipment = good but may not yield the wattage savings one thinks and it will vary from rider to rider. Aero testing of the specific rider on the bike with the specific equipment in question is the only way to know quantitatively how much energy is actually being saved. YMMV.
02-23-16, 01:31 PM
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02-23-16, 01:47 PM
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Last edited by jdms mvp; 02-23-16 at 02:41 PM.
02-23-16, 04:06 PM
#39
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I'm in red. April 2015. For the win.
April 1984. 5th, but first in the actual field.
April 1984. 5th, but first in the actual field.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
02-23-16, 04:16 PM
#40
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I modeled my frames after a size S TCR aluminum, which has a 40 cm c-c seat tube and I think 44 cm to the top of the clamp. Changes include doing a 75.5 deg STA. Effective 56.5 top tube, and I think it's a bit short still, maybe by 2 cm. 39 cm chainstay because front end is so far out there that with 40.5 cm stays the rear tire chatters all over the place, even when I'm just coasting through a turn (I had the orange frame shortened to 39 cm, that's why it's red now).
Dreaming up another bike, if I can do it (and the builder still builds). It would be a progression/combination of the red (round tube) and black (aero tube) bikes. I'd want to use an aero fork, like the BMC time trial fork or something, do that whole hidden brake/stem/etc thing, if possible, I don't know rakes and such at this point. Dunno how that would work. Head tube, if stem is on top, I'd want 5 cm to give me room for adjustment. If a TT type fork and the stem is "in front of" the head tube, I can go a bit taller, but the 9.5 cm HT is 3 cm too tall. I don't know enough about TT forks/etc to think about which fork, if they're available, etc, because I never thought about buying a TT bike. I did see one that uses a tiny head tube but I don't know how the stem fits and all that.
I'm 5'7" but I have a 28.5" actual inseam, or thereabouts. My the bottom of my 30" inseam jeans drag on the ground under my (typically elevated Asics) sneakers. On the bike I'm really short.
Dreaming up another bike, if I can do it (and the builder still builds). It would be a progression/combination of the red (round tube) and black (aero tube) bikes. I'd want to use an aero fork, like the BMC time trial fork or something, do that whole hidden brake/stem/etc thing, if possible, I don't know rakes and such at this point. Dunno how that would work. Head tube, if stem is on top, I'd want 5 cm to give me room for adjustment. If a TT type fork and the stem is "in front of" the head tube, I can go a bit taller, but the 9.5 cm HT is 3 cm too tall. I don't know enough about TT forks/etc to think about which fork, if they're available, etc, because I never thought about buying a TT bike. I did see one that uses a tiny head tube but I don't know how the stem fits and all that.
I'm 5'7" but I have a 28.5" actual inseam, or thereabouts. My the bottom of my 30" inseam jeans drag on the ground under my (typically elevated Asics) sneakers. On the bike I'm really short.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
02-23-16, 04:19 PM
#41
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I can't find a picture but former 6 day ace Patrick Sercu (Eddy Merckx days, they battled on the track apparently) had a similar position except he rode a tall frame, and his position was on the track. I can't imagine hanging all the way out there on a bike that doesn't coast and that will faceplant you if your legs fail.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
02-23-16, 06:37 PM
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02-23-16, 07:42 PM
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02-23-16, 09:05 PM
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02-24-16, 12:52 AM
#45
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Internal cables in frame. Internal routing aero handlebars. Aero wheels. Skinsuit. Booties. Aero helmet. Added together, they're more effective than an aero frame. On a cost per watt saved basis, the frame is the worst. I can't fathom paying premium for a super high quality aero frame, especially the new vias and madone. Talk about pain in the ass maintenance. Don't do that to your mechanics.
02-24-16, 05:40 AM
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Internal cables in frame. Internal routing aero handlebars. Aero wheels. Skinsuit. Booties. Aero helmet. Added together, they're more effective than an aero frame. On a cost per watt saved basis, the frame is the worst. I can't fathom paying premium for a super high quality aero frame, especially the new vias and madone. Talk about pain in the ass maintenance. Don't do that to your mechanics.
02-24-16, 06:54 AM
#48
commu*ist spy
I think generally, they use more higher modulus carbon on key locations like head tube or bb in order to achieve the same stiffness with less material, so it's mainly a weight thing. Also stiffer doesn't always mean better. I recall a study where 2 out of 3 sprinters were faster riding flexing frames. I don't really notice tbh
02-24-16, 07:21 AM
#49
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Yes! but with a longer stem. I like my hands in front of the front axle. I'd want about 7-8 cm more stem, based on the fact that I'd want the end of the drop to be in line with the front of the bar as it is in that picture.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
02-24-16, 07:27 AM
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I think generally, they use more higher modulus carbon on key locations like head tube or bb in order to achieve the same stiffness with less material, so it's mainly a weight thing. Also stiffer doesn't always mean better. I recall a study where 2 out of 3 sprinters were faster riding flexing frames. I don't really notice tbh