Keith99

And if you do rotate the rear tire you lose something valuable. Having the decal on a tire line up with the valve stem allows you to know just where in the tire to check for glass, thorns or steel belt pieces.

I include that last as I've had instances where even knowing exactly where to look I couldn't find a small piece of steel belt in a tire. At least not on the first flat. The second one within a mile in the same spot meant I kept searching until I found it.

JoeyBike

Some here confuse "brakes" with "stopping ability". So many in my city ride Wally-World bikes with no working brakes and drag their feet to stop. Others ride fixed and stop the wheel from turning with pedal back-pressure. In both cases, bikes don't really have to stop instantly to evade trouble anyway. Keep the speeds low, or within your skill level and use STEERING to avoid trouble.

Ever watched Hockey? Ice skates don't have brakes. But a skilled skater can stop nearly on a dime by making a sharp turn. Hockey players fly around the ice and only hit each other or the glass when they want to. It's more about CONTROL than actual mechanical brakes. I used to race inline skates. Guess what? No brakes. But I could stop just as fast as anyone on a bicycle because I had practiced the skill of stopping.

My fixie friends have no trouble controlling their bikes even at silly speeds in rush hour traffic. I am amazed by it all really. I rode a fixie once and it was a terrifying experience even at low speeds. However, I do not feel the need to control other human beings who seem quite comfortable and safe on their "brakeless" fixies that they seem to have full control over due to practice and skill.

Yes, in YOUR hands, a brakeless bike would be stupid and dangerous perhaps.

asmac

Don't play a lot of hockey down on the bayou, do you Joey? Can you work concussion rates into your analogy??

DX-MAN

OK, Joey, nobody's trying to control anyone, we're discussing the use of fixies. Since I'm familiar with what you have said over some years about the somewhat anarchic nature of riding in N.O., I'm not surprised that you totally gloss over the legal requirements put on bikes in most places. Wally bikes without working brakes may well be getting stopped without incident, but they're hardly legal. THAT'S the basis of the discussion. And YES, by letter of law, "stopping" DOES require "brakes", it's specified.

In your Mad Max Wonderland, which I commend you for thriving in, whatever works for Joe Shrimpboat may be the norm. But it's hardly a perspective the rest of us can relate to.

JoeyBike

I played roller hockey 3 months a year in Santa Monica and started an outdoor league in an unused parking lot (after dark) in New Orleans that lasted two years. We had lots of "Yankee' ex-patriots yearning for hockey and I delivered, although at it's peak a losing team might have to wait an hour before getting back on the court. Even my wife played as well as several other females. No one had brakes on their skates and no one got killed or even hurt beyond some skin loss now and then. No body checks allowed, so you better know how to skate. Zero concussions BTW with virtually thousands of hours of hockey over a five year period including S. Cali. and most just wore shin guards and no head gear.

JoeyBike

I certainly can't speak for the rest of the puritanical world out there, but the "old ladies" in A&S should stay on the porch in their rockers.

I-Like-To-Bike

No old ladies I know have to wrap their handlebars in Camo Tape and make pretend that they are brave warriors going to war or count coup by going on a scalping raid on our bike ride. Some of us old ladies just ride a bike and deal with bicycling reality as it comes without all the drama.

yosarian9

I ride a fixed with brakes.
I dont use the brakes, I simply look ahead/use situation awareness and slow my legs to stop.
I have never skidded.
I ride daily and dont need to replace my tires every month(or so). My rear tire has about 9 months on it.

Bikeforumuser0017

Well, just ride your bike like normally (without doing any tricks) to a safe place to do your tricks like an empty parking lot. No one wants to see a guy riding backwards in circles in the middle of a street.

I would argue that skidding would be safer to brake than having a brake lever anywhere but the handlebars, because at least when you skid, you have both hands on the handlebars. Now imagine going 20mph on a bmx bike and you have to brake suddenly with a brake lever on the top tube. You could imagine your weight going forward and since you only have one hand on the handlebars, you unintentionally turn and hit your side.

Bikeforumuser0017

So I'm guessing no hills? There comes a point when braking on a fixie when skidding becomes easier than pressure stopping.

Bikeforumuser0017

I'm sorry to tell you this, but the people who ride fixies in your area are idiots. At least where I live, people aren't running 54-13. One reason I bought a track bike for the street was because I would always stay in almost the same gear on my road bike, 49-18ish. So with that knowledge, my track bike ratio is 47-17 and it's pretty manageable, even in a hilly place like SF.

JoeyBike

Izzat so? Tell us about that Mr. I-Just-Ride-My-Bike.

rydabent

I challenge any fixie rider to a stopping contest. We will ride at 20mph and we will see just how much longer it takes the fixie to stop. BTW I ride a LWB recumbent known for their short stopping ability.

JoeyBike

Would the results be any different if you challenged a perfectly legal coaster brake bike rider to a stopping contest?

I-Like-To-Bike

As you already pointed out, I have done so, many times. I will repeat for your benefit, "Some of us old ladies (your description of A&S posters not overly impressed with your antics) just ride a bike and deal with bicycling reality as it comes without all the drama."

I have made many post on various subjects, which apparently is an issue for you, but not once boasted about "going to war" on my bike with my war paint (camo tape) to remind me that I was some kind of oh-so-special bicyclist/brave warrior battling the denizens of Hell.

I will point out now, again for your benefit, safe and efficient cycling through any city traffic requires neither specialized bicycle equipment nor that the cyclist cop a Tough Guy or Warrior attitude.

Chicago Al 

We had a lively (?) discussion here a couple of years ago, prompted by an OP who had been riding down a steep hill on a brakeless fixie, passed a line of stopped traffic on the right (he was on the curb), and ended up T-boning a left-turning car coming the opposite direction. Someone going downhill had left a gap for it, as they weren't moving anyway.

It was kind of a left hook, except that as the last cars the cyclist passed were tall (vans or whatever) he couldn't see what was ahead. Some of us said that meant he should have slowed, if not stopped, but as he put it 'I couldn't have stopped if I wanted to!' Miraculously he was not injured, and when he saw drivers getting out of their cars he panicked, got on the bike (also miraculously rideable) and sped away.

He wanted to know if he should now report the crash, and maybe be in line for compensation for damage to his bike. While everyone agreed that leaving the scene was a bad idea, some of the brain trust here thought that the police would be sympathetic to him. Some of us felt that admitting to 'driving' a vehicle that one was not capable of stopping was not likely to go well for him.

But surely no one here would do such a thing.

JoeyBike

You misinterpreted my slight of some A&S posters. The "old ladies" a.k.a. "old biddies*" I refer to here are the ones who continually make a big deal over absolutely nothing i.e., crossing a street safely (red light running), brain safety (helmet wearing) or riding a track bike (fixed gear in this thread) on city streets. The Biddies* generally have zero experience with the topic at hand yet feel compelled to roar in here with all sorts of antidotes, fables, hearsay, testimonials, and rare news articles to further their agenda against said safety concerns. Biddies* in no way shape or form have anything to do with my "antics" one way or another. But for the record, in a concise format:

1. I always wear a helmet. I don't think it decreases my risk of injury very much other than preventing skin cancer on my dome. I don't care who else wears one or why they choose to do so or take a pass.

2. I have no personal experience stopping a fixed gear "no brakes" bike other than riding with friends who seem to have zero issue with stopping those things under some very advanced circumstances. I see no reason whatsoever to testify against them regarding their ability to stop a bike with "no brakes".

3. I run every red light I can. 40 years of that and not a scratch. Yet Biddies, who don't run red lights, roll in here condemning everyone who does based on reasons of safety.

This is what Biddies do. They gossip and interfere. This is what defines them. They are generally, by definition...old as well.

*biddy[SUP]2[/SUP]n pl -dies Informal a woman, esp an old gossipy or interfering one.
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/biddy

asmac

Probably. You seem to miss the point of brakes which is to quickly convert kinetic energy to heat (thus slowing you down) while using a minimum of force to activate the system. If the wheel locks and your tire skids, your brakes have failed. Heard of ABS? The ability to react quickly without requiring athletic ability is pretty helpful too.

JoeyBike

You seem to miss the facts. A skilled person on a track bike with no hand brakes has much more control over what the back wheel does or does not do than someone riding a coaster brake bike. The guys I ride with almost never skid, and when the do it may be a couple of inches at most. Same as an emergency stop would produce on a coaster brake bike.

The only physical difference in braking power between fixed and coaster brake is wear and tear on the human being riding the thing. Emergency stops on a fixie without hand brakes stresses knee joints more than I would care for personally. Otherwise, direct drive likely gives the rider more general, and instant, control over reducing speed. Coaster brakes do not engage instantly on a back-pedal motion. There is a "dead spot" between power and engaging the brake. A direct drive bike simply needs less power transmitted to the pedals to automatically slow down which is instantaneous.

LesterOfPuppets

Yeah, my fixed gear has better braking distance than my coaster brake bike.

I rode brakeless freewheel for a couple of weeks this year, just stopped with foot jammed on the front tire behind the fork, so use of bikes with built-in brakes is just a matter of convenience for me.

asmac

That is ridiculous.

On the topic of facts:

1. This is the safety forum to do with policy and equipment and such, not the forum to show that athletically gifted people can do extraordinary things and not kill anyone. Lots of motorcycle and car drivers believe they can weave in and out at speed (and usually are right) without killing anyone. I don't expect they hang around car safety forums demanding accommodation on the road for their style of driving.
2. If the police want to harass your friends shambling around on broken down bikes I don't expect they need a law to do it.
3. Glad to know that you are an experienced road-rollerblade-hockey player. If you try ice skates some day you will learn that hockey players stop by turning the blades perpendicular to the direction of travel and digging in. Much like skiers. Not by doing tight little pirouettes as you suggest. Neither method -- spinning in circles or skidding sideways -- seems to be a good idea on a bicycle.
4. Like it or not but traffic laws exist to bring some degree of standardization and moderate behaviour in a shared environment. I agree that red light and stop sign laws are often not appropriate for bicycles and, like you, try to use my brain to judge the situation. Nonetheless, having traffic laws is probably a good idea.
5. Strange to see this thread revived. That's it for me.

JoeyBike

And you know this because you actually ride both types of bikes.

Thank You!

JoeyBike

A "hockey stop" skill is accomplished by gradually learning to make sharper and sharper turns until the turn (along with transfer of forward momentum down bending legs into the ice) becomes so sharp and controlled that the skater just stops.

I am also fairly proficient at riding a unicycle. The same physics apply. Stop forcing the drive wheel to turn and you stop like magic.

Same theory...stop creating forward force and momentum while giving remaining momentum someplace to go other than straight into the car trying to right-hook me. In other words - stop turning the pedals with force and the bike quickly slows down. If you need a few more inches just turn the front wheel away from the danger until a complete stop is obtained.

Traffic laws exist - as they relate to bicycles - are often just modified motor vehicle laws made by people with even less understanding of direct drive bicycles than the safety nannies here. "Oh My GOD...he has no BRAKES!!???" No, and my unicycle does not even have HANDLEBARS yet I have no problem stopping on a dime.

-=(8)=-

I ride a coaster bike here, and rode a fixie in Vermont for a few years.

There is some assumption that fixie riders are a level we mere mortals
can only aspire to. It is simply incomprehensible that a guy who rides a
coaster could be blessed the same superhuman powers a fixie rider is.

I will gladly challenge any fixie rider to out-stop my coaster brake bike in
any conditions. Im in Louisville.
There has to be some of the fixie taliban here that will take me up on this ?

frantik

In San Jose if you are under 25 it's pretty much a requirement to ride a brakeless fixie.... a lot of riders have excellent control, but things can go bad quick, and once you lose control it's pretty hard to gain it.. just yesterday a brakeless rider was telling me about how their feet slipped off the pedals on a downhill and they bailled hard. I've seen it happen too. Also seen some hella risky red light running against traffic at the bottom of a hill because dudes couldn't stop. Riding in a peloton with brakeless riders is a little hair raising... luckily only one person ran into me last time lol.. i wasn't even braking either. You gotta give brakeless riders more warning that you're slowing/stopping, especially when you're close together.

I rode fixed WITH brakes one time and I was like wtf why do people like this.. but they do haha.. as long as people don't crash into me idgaf, though I still think it's pretty nuts