robertj298 

I just picked up a 1986 Miyata 912 that is in excellent shape. Everything is stock including all Shimano 600 components.I am waiting for tires and bar tape to arrive before I can ride it. I also have a 1987 Centurion Ironman in very good shape.It is all original with Shimano 105 components. I've been riding it and love it. I'm wondering how the 912 will compare to the Ironman?

ryansu

sounds like a problem I would like to have, never had the pleasure, yet, of riding an IM but my 79 Miyata 912 rode great.

seedsbelize 

Depends on whether you're talking to the Miyata cult or the Centurion cult. I'm a member of neither.

T-Mar

My preference would be the 912, as I like the added stiffness of the STB tubeset. There's not a not to distinguish between the components, though the New 105 brakeset on the Ironman should have a lighter feel, better modulation and aero cable routing.

top506

I am a member of both, and all things being equal for any given model year they overlapped ('86-'89) I'd pick the 914. Sorry, Robbie.

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texaspandj

My preference would be the Ironman. With better tubing for all day riding. However a better and fairer comparison would be the Master Ironman with 600 components and slightly different frame compared to the expert which has 105.

top506

I was referring to the Master. Both the Miyata and IM Master are 600-level bikes.

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seedsbelize 

Well this is a good sign for my incoming Ironman. I tend to prefer a slightly less stiff frame. I have never ridden a Miyata.

seypat

I have both as well. It depends on what the rider likes. I like a hint of spring in my frames. I would give a slight edge to the IM because of that. The Miyata STB makes for a stiff frame. I have a 52 Team Miyata also. The Stiffness/Launch factor is high with that frame.

robertj298 

I was under the impression that Expert and Master used the exact same frame.

texaspandj

Well the tubing decals are the same (Tange 1). However, the frames are slightly different perhaps not enough to make a difference to most.

RobbieTunes

The tubing is the same, the weights are basically the same, the geometry is basically the same. Strip the paint off of an Expert and Master from 88, 89, you can't tell them apart.

1985, 1986 and 1987 Master shared a fork.
1988, 1989 and 1987 Expert shared a fork.

Scratch one, you get the other.

There are very subtle differences that are not consistent to models or years that people have noticed. It's more about the 80's than it is about any intentional differences.

Centurion specifically intended the frames to the same, with the only differences being the components. Other marques were doing the same thing, just differentiating with components.

Some just seem to ride different. Unless one uses identical components, down to the cable ends, and then tests them across a representative sampling, with everything the same, even the tire PSI, just no way to know.

Anecdotal evidence is out there that some difference exist. That's certainly true, but I'm just not convinced they are that different. I have an '87 Master and an '88 Master. I swear they are different bikes, as they just feel different.

Maybe it's the color.

RobbieTunes

You will be.

RobbieTunes

Keep that impression. It's closer to the truth than anything we've dug up.

RobbieTunes

I've never seen anyone with a Miyata 912 tattoo.

texaspandj

I can tell them apart. Bottom bracket shell, lugs, chain stays and seat bolt binder are different.

Classtime 

RobbieTunes

True, but my point is you may well find those differences on bikes of the same model and year.

Those were open market parts, bought and shipped to the factory to produce the frames. What showed up was used, generally with consistency, but I genuinely believe there was no intention to differentiate the frames.

arimajol

i miss the 912 that i had. gave a friend who needed some wheels a nice deal, and it got stolen a couple months later. that was a really nice riding bike.

texaspandj

I've had at least 3 masters and at minimum 4 experts and they have been consistent in their exact differences.
My theory is the Masters made in one factory and the Experts in another factory. Reportedly Miyata, panasonic etc were made at the same factory so,I theorize maybe ONE of the Ironman frames. The world may never know for sure and only 2 or 3 care.

texaspandj

Scott Molina the winningest triathlete of all time raced on a Miyata 912 for a time. He won the biggest triathlon in the world the Ironman world championship in Hawaii on a Miyata. However it was a Miyata Carbon 5000.

texaspandj

Here's a "t
riathlon" advertisement featuring former world champion Scott Molina, circa 1988.

T-Mar

Using the same frame to create multiple models by varying the component spec and cosmetics was a common practice among mass market brands. It allowed companies to hit different price points, while striking a balance between reduced consumer costs and increased profits.

​​​​​​​The classic example of doubling up on a frame is the Peugeot AO8 and UO8. Adding a few brazed-on fittings created the AE8 and UE8, so you could even argue that the basic boom era Peugeot frame design performed quadruple duty.

T-Mar

I have been collecting Centurion serial numbers for over a decade and have well over one hundred documented samples of the Ironman variants alone. All the Experts and Masters I've seen have used the same serial number format, indicating that they come from the same factory. The only Ironmen models I've seen that were manufactured by different sources are some first year Ironman and the Ironman Carbon.

Regarding the relationship between Miyata and M-a-t-s-u-s-h-i-t-a (the manufacturer of the Panasonic brand bicycles), the latter was the largest shareholder of Miyata stock for almost fifty years but both companies maintained independent manufacturing facilities.

texaspandj

Very cool to know.