Ygduf

your mentors suck.

mattm

Half of them anyway.

mattm

As for the original thought, I will say this - if there was ever a "good old days" of US amateur racing, it has to be when you had to keep winning/placing to stay at cat 1, and there was only like 200 cat 1's in the nation. At least that's what the old timers say.

Was that the 80's?

rubiksoval

I started racing in 2002 and upgraded to a 1 in 2005 and did a whole bunch of regional races, along with a few NRC and national champs. It was a lot harder to upgrade. I raced out of state a couple of times a month just to find races with enough people so the races would qualify for upgrade points.

Now even our rinky-dink Wed. night 1/2/3 and 4/5 races offer upgrade points so it seems a lot easier to upgrade in that regard. But I don't think the races are any easier or any slower, or the riders any better or worse. A few new Cat 2s I'm closer to have taken a year to two years to be able to race in the 1/2 races instead of just jumping in from the 3s, but then there's always that cat 2 who's riding in breaks in his first few races, as well, so it probably evens out. But ability level doesn't really seem all that different from before with guys chasing points across state lines.

People still do stupid things and crash. And there's always that one odd cat 1 who apparently has never ridden a rotating paceline before, but overall I couldn't point a finger at any one thing and say that such and such was different in 2006 than it is today (in the p/1/2 fields, at least).

Doge

Around the 80s Cat 1 was so hard to achieve some went pro first.
I don't recall (and I'm not going to research) Lemond or Lance being Cat 1s.

gerundium

Coming from a completely different cycling culture where upgrading and a cat system is pretty much non-existant: Would exposing lower cat riders to upper cat riders more often improve the mentorship?

Here you have the training races (on closed club tracks, another point entirely) which are usually mixed field affairs. People wanting to start out racing are always pointed to these. If you can hold your own in midweek training races you can start racing "for real" lets say. Here is where you are exposed to the experienced riders and can see what they do and do not do. Usually contains some swearing and shouting as well.

Edit: point to add, this would be the trajectory coming into it as an adult like i did.

rubiksoval

That's how my team works. We have lots of 4s and 5s and we've started to do race simulations, but we have to do different race sims for the different groups and some of the faster guys will ride with the lower cats then to give them pointers on how to rotate and when to push hard and when to rest easy. Just having one "race" doesn't do anything as the fast guys just ride away from everyone else, but having specific "mentor" type rides is a big plus.

Ygduf

So far literally everyone has said that there were people who played a mentor role to them when they started riding and racing.

I still receive unsolicited advice on how to ride, race, train, and eat to this day, despite a podium at (master's) nats and a district win (baby masters) and moderate success. Then there's all the solicited advice I get from guys on the road and through here.

It seems like there is a surplus of mentorship!

radripperaj

I hate it when this happens. Even though I have been racing for a bit and going on group rides for about 4 years now. Every once in a while I will come across some guy who has decided he is going to teach me how to ride in a group even though I have never had any complaints from anyone else. It usually goes something like, " you have to yell when you are about to stand up going on a climb!" or " you need to ask if the person behind you is ready before you pull off the front of the pace line". I have to bite my tongue a lot when I am around him.

Doge

I get a flat, and as an old guy all these fit kids want to come by and change my flats for me, just because I out-weigh and out-age them - by a lot!
I let them help. It makes them feel good and that is a good thing for cycling.

Oh - is this a racing sub-forum. Sorry.

spectastic

old friend of mine likes to brag about how he was ranked 10th in the country at nationals, and he was a cat 2. it was probably exaggerated, but I can see the elite cat's being more exclusive back then. But then again, maybe there's just more people racing nowadays.

cyclinganomaly

Mentorship? It doesn't exist, not in Wisconsin at least.

The first race I tried was in April of 2014. I went to that particular race because they had a "learn to race clinic" before the cat.5 race. What a joke that was, all you get is a little speech about not making sudden moves or overlapping wheels, if you didn't know anything they said you shouldn't even been in a group. I got dropped pretty quick, and got lapped, it totally sucked. Afterwards the guy who did the clinic came up to me and told me that he though I had potential and I should find a team to join and they will help me learn what I needed to know to do well. That made perfect sense, so that's what I tried. I started asking around for a good team to join, I talked to a few different people who referred me to their team, but when I asked what kind of rides they do, or what they do to help new racers learn they got this deer in the headlights look and told me that their team doesn't do that. A year later I went back to the same race, and talked to that guy again. I then asked him what teams help new racers learn, he couldn't answer that question.

I kept asking around, got sent on a few wild goose chases that were dead ends. A couple of weeks later I was talking to someone at work who used to race, he said his old team would help. He called the president of the team, and like that I was on. I was familiar with the team, I knew they had a lot of very good racers, including a bunch of cat.1's, the kind of guys I would like to learn from. Quickly after joining, I found that the team consisted of 2 groups. The elite cat.1/2's, who made it clear to me that it was beneath them to help anyone. Then there were the masters racers, who didn't seem to care how anyone on the team did. No regular team rides, nothing. I asked for help, the masters, the elites, I didn't get much. One day after a race the president of the team told me I needed to practice bumping to get more comfortable being in the pack, but do you think I could get anyone to do that with me? Nope! I have since left that team.

Now I'm paying a coach $300 a month. Paying this kind of money as a cat.4 wanting to get results is pretty ridiculous, but not like I have any other choices. I selected this coach because he said he would teach me how to race, the bike handling, and the tactics. The other coaches I talked to were just about fitness. If I didn't live with my parents I couldn't afford to pay a coach. I often ask myself why am I spending this money, it really would be put to better use getting my loans paid off, or moving back out on my own again. We'll see how this season goes.

So that has been my experience trying to find someone who is willing to help others learn. In summary, the problem is no one wants to be a mentor, there seem to be plenty of people who want to learn, but no one wants to teach. I have become known at the camera guy among the cat.4's here because I have a GoPro camera on the bike and usually upload the race to YouTube. The good thing is that this is encouraging people to come out and try the races. The bad thing is that they are coming to me asking for advice on how to do better at the races. I can't usually answer their questions, and I'm not qualified to help them, but I want to help.

It would be nice to see some programs that would help new racers. A mentorship would be great, but even something as simple as teams doing rides or mock races where the upper category racers gave advice and help to the lower categories racers would be a big improvement. Hell, just even having someone critique a race that they were in would help.

Voodoo76

cyclinganomaly, have you considered spending a little time at Kenosha?

In general Tracks spend more time on riding and pack skills development at all levels than road. Go take a new rider class. If nothing else it's a fun experience.

NYMXer

Ah, mentorship..... teaching someone less experienced what you have learned through your efforts. I think this is a lost appreciation and many skilled people are afraid to share what they know for fear of losing their position in life.
You will even this this in the workplace, the "keep them dumb" mentality, so that some young up and comer doesn't take their position away from them.
I am still fairly new to cycling, but love to ride with the faster and more dedicated groups (when I feel extra strong, lol) but I have noticed that about half of them will explain things like group etiquette, while others just yell.

miyata man

Maybe that $300/month would be better spent on drinking. WI is chock full of people to act as mentors on the road to full blown alcoholism. Every single habit and idealistic mentality you forwarded translates over almost exactly. Race your way to the bottom.

Your post made more sense when I saw you just got out of college and don't have the type of life experiences that would get you through this. For a minute there I was wondering if you were from out of state and had truly never met a predominantly stoic population before. The environment you describe is active at the juniors level. If you see a need and want to fill it at an elite level there are any number of good places to start. Get a pile of 4/5 riders out in a field and have at the bumping drills and short track races with lots of cornering and sprinting back up to speed.

It might help to recognize the strong history of people going out and acquiring skills on their own in racing. Historically mentorship occurred when a proven racer adopted a kid to teach him his profession or after fighting through the ranks to the national level or just below.

globecanvas

Is this the going rate these days?

TheKillerPenguin

In my experience even though skill-focused group rides are rare, if you show up to a ride and are able to hang, want some advice, and are fun to be around people are pretty happy to help. Show up on the regular and be cool and the faster guys will probably let you tag along on some of their less structured training rides, and you can pick their brains about everything you want answers to. It's not like you sign a consent form decreeing a mentor-mentee relationship.

There are often low key mid week training races where you can try all sorts of silly stuff without the pressure associated with the real ones. You may have to drive a bit to get to them but they're generally worth it just for the fun.

End of the day you're paying for that coach and racing because you love riding your bike, yeah? Approach it with the same enthusiasm as a dog chasing tennis balls and people will naturally want to take you under their wing.

hack

That's pretty much how I learned (heck ... still am learning).

miyata man

Not so long ago I lived in Waterford for a couple years fresh from bouncing around the mountains doing other things. Bought a steel and then a carbon road bike to chase down every road whether it was worth the trip or not. A few people here bore witness to my redevelopment of skills and reaching of basically the same conclusions as cyclinganomaly. Hard faced Chicago attitudes, big city neuroses about inter-personal contact, and in large part reservations about combining those with body building strong racers devoid of actual riding prowess or riding experience in the last six months. The few people here I discussed all this online with thought I was; A - nuts, B - slow, C - making excuses, and D - nuts for making pathetic excuses for being slow and scared.

That first season I considered racing locally justified every concern I had and vindicated every bone in my body that yearned to go ride on scenic Rustic Roads devoid of traffic. Lowlights included cancelling the training crit series besides the nuclear power plant after running out of ambulances multiple weeks in a row (Rights reserved for a script I'm selling to Troma Films), Whitnall Park Classic ending a few racing careers and more than a few seasons, Superweek sounding it's death rattle, and this ongoing dope show surrounding LA really kicking off. Add to that despite living in Waterford and riding extensively. Hardly seeing a bike that wasn't attached to a child and bought at Walmart. Certainly not a single Waterford frame. Finally, you cannot overstate the inescapable fever for all things Packers intertwining every aspect of daily life.

Second season Ygduf sent me a jersey and I finally quit riding around wearing Patagucci in favor of actual kit. Considered paying the going rate for Samantha and Skylar Schneider's dad as a coach when it became apparent the choices were clubs for the beer bellied enthusiast to yell all the things they couldn't at their wife or ride up to near certain serious injury as an unsupported cat5 with no teammates. All the while continuing to ride myself into the ground outdoors year round and being a student of racing. Eventually someone picked up the phone at a local shop and agreed to let me come out and do an A ride with their team. Ended up averaging 22 mph in winds up to 60 mph, heavy downpour, and two verified tornadoes in the area we spent the evening hours trying to avoid. They thought I was nuts for the exact opposite reasons mentioned above when I insisted on showing up again through a broad smile.

Point here is enough respect was earned they helped sharpen up my pack skills to the point I could safely ride 2" off a wheel for hours in heavy crosswinds or on the brink of heat exhaustion. I considered the fact my first post might have come off as derogative. I chose to avoid what ended up being a bad year and met a ton of memorable personalities riding around small town WI eating and drinking everywhere that looked promising. Experiences I wouldn't trade for being a few years further along in road racing. Because I kept banging on doors I finally met a number of solid riders, but nothing like a second father to hold my hand. Just good people throughout who were willing to help in their own way. Don't get discouraged and join the race to the bottom.

mike868y

tl;dr

spectastic

it really doesn't seem like your area is very good at fostering racers. and I imagine this would be the case back in the day, where bicycle racing was a sport that discouraged newcomers. In iowa, I didn't even know amateur cycling was a thing. when I moved to texas, it wasn't a very bike friendly place, but I managed to find a small group and grew from there. however, even with people to ride with, my growth was limited because I was a big fish in a small pond. since coming to austin, it has become a new reality. people could go from cat 5 to cat 2 in one season because of weekly crits. experience, advice, fast group rides, good infrastructure are all easily within reach. you can't do that in some small town in the middle of nowhere. $300/month for a coach as a cat 4 is ridiculous.. wtf... so location matters a lot.

miyata man

Funny story, how about the best female triathlete and two of the best female domestic pro cyclists currently? Do they qualify as racers fostered in the area? Would they qualify within a segment of racers that are normally discouraged? Oh, isn't the US Olympic training center there too?

Hmm, I bet if everyone got a participation prize AND could put their hand on a shoulder in front of them (I feel the spirit of Botto reaching into me to remind Mikey how long of an arm that would need to be in some cases, MUAAAAAHHHH) there would be no disappointing anomalies in the local cycling scene. Or, y'know, just get out there and, I loosely quote Churchill here, repair your emotions and move forward as if no slight, perceived or otherwise, occurred.

revchuck 

I'm an outlier here in that I started racing at 60. Mentoring for me has been almost non-existent; for a while, most of it came from BF in the form of advice from @shovelhd and @racerEx, plus my Utah-based coach. The local racing scene is pretty sparse and the local racers looked at me as a Fred with pretentions. (I've since been accepted, and have my own handle - OMC, for "Old Man Chuck".) At my age, most of the pack fodder has filtered out, leaving the guys who are pretty damned good and have 30-40 years of experience to fill the small fields, so there's not much mentoring going on there either. It just it what it is, and I've accepted it. My goals are to do better than last time as opposed to winning. It's still fun to beat myself senseless, just because I can.

topflightpro

But RC, isn't there a velodrome there you could go to if you wanted to race more?

revchuck 

Yeah, but it's a 120- or 140-mile drive each way (Baton Rouge and Houston, respectively) and would require buying a track bike. Houston does have a "Track 101" course and I've thought about that.