eom 

The person of Arete is of the highest effectiveness; they use all their faculties—strength, bravery, and wit—to achieve real results.
The Ancient Greeks applied the term to anything: for example, the excellence of a chimney, the excellence of a bull for breeding, and the excellence of a man.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arete

Brian Chapman is really awe inspiring.

cudak888 

Seen this video posted before, but it's always a joy to rewatch when it pops up. What fantastic, instant box lining this man could do.

Makes me want a Jack Taylor. Very much...

-Kurt

sced

hmmmpff Arete My favorite is wabi-sabi / "beauty in imperfection". I use the expression allll ttthhhe tttiimme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi

fender1

So your "Holy Grail is imperfection?

bikingshearer 

I thought of exactly that video. Thanks for finding and posting it.

Charles Wahl

Not at all; my goal is not to have a holy grail, but just to cycle along and pay attention to the flowers (literally and figuratively), enjoying them for what they are, and not getting too torqued up about what they aren't, or how much better they could be. Possibly this has been a necessary adaptation to my profession (architecture). When doing projects for myself, I feel that I'm fairly demanding, but am content to live with my limitations too. Guess I'm just not a Platonist -- don't see the point in that.

Getting back to lug and box lining, and other pinstriping: I do actually like to see a bit of "wiggle" or "release blobs" at crossings of the terminations, as evidence that it was done by hand. It's sort of like seeing traces of the sculptor's toothed chisel when examining a statue; evidence that we were here, and did this.

Road Fan

Randy, shaky hands, or a creative vision of the latitudes of the straight line?

Doug Fattic 

You belong in the not-Doug-Fattic-customer category. While I encourage my framebuilding students to build to a high standard (I see no virtue to train future framebuilders to be mediocre), I also have to respect how good they can realistically be. We all vary in talent. Often some students figure out they are not naturally gifted and let me improve their results. But sometimes it is best just to accept the quality they can achieve and leave it at that. However the talented ones need to be encouraged to excel so our trade continues to have an excellent reputation.

I was taught how to do double box lining when I was learning framebuilding at Ellis Briggs in Yorkshire. Rod (one of the painters) came from the Ellis side of the business. What he did was to steady his hand with one of his fingers of his brush hand as he made the long stripe. That keep the brush stroke consistent. After he made the cross stripes to close in the box, he wiped the excess lengths beyond the intersection with a dampened cloth. This provides acceptable but not perfect results. Charles would approve.

When I painted the double box lining on by daughter's frame (two colors), I masked with fine line tape (a Scotch product). I could use a section of aluminum angle I bought at the hardware store for assistance in keeping the lines (and tape) straight. Here is a picture of the 650c (not to be confused with 650b) frame I made and painted for her.

Velo Mule

Thanks Doug Fattic . Great tips for box lining. Not a bad looking bike either. I like the box lining on your daughters bike with the newer style frame and components. You used 590 wheels? I don't want to cause a turn in this thread, however that is an interesting choice. One that I like, since I also chose that size wheel for my wife's Panasonic that originally came with 27" wheels. Being a custom frame maker makes this fit better than my ham fisted preplace, relace and I got more space solution. I could not change the frame geometry to better fit her.
Beautiful bike.

Charles Wahl

I'm not sure how to take that. I really appreciate your contributions to this forum, and were I to "commission" a bike frame, I'd probably want to do it where my roots are (SE MI). Routinely seen hereabouts wearing one of my 4 Tigers caps (fandom begun as a toddler is durable). So I hope that I wouldn't be disqualified on account of musings here.

Doug Fattic 

I used 650C wheels that have an ERD of 571. This smaller wheel diameter solves the toe clearance problem. And makes a smaller frame look more proportional because the head tube lugs aren't crammed together. It is often not that obvious 650C wheels are a bit smaller than 700C wheels just glancing at the bike.

cudak888 

Indeed, if one doesn't glance closely, a 650C frame can appear to be full-sized. Case in point:

This 650C track bike...



...is this size when put next to something with 700C's.



-Kurt

Doug Fattic 

Yes we are both from Michigan although Niles where I live is barely over the state line from Indiana. If I understand your self described identification correctly, you want a frame that functions properly but aren't too concerned about the aesthetics as long as the bicycle rides well. I on the other hand am a builder and painter that is very fussy with details. It is critical to me that a frame be brazed with clean shorelines and I spend a lot of time shaping and filing lugs. In fact my specialty is designing and carving lugs. All of that is entirely unnecessary to the quality of the ride. In other words how a bicycle looks is as important to me as how it functions (both are necessary). There are builders that are cheaper and faster than me if the looks thing isn't important. I imagined you might value cost and time more than appearances?

However my primary job is teaching framebuilding classes. I occasionally get time to paint a few frames and I also spend a lot of time working on our charity bicycle project in Ukraine. That leaves almost no time left over to make custom frames. There has been a huge increase in requests to learn framebuilding after Covid. Some of my students want to learn the craft so they can make more. In that case we focus on methods and techniques and practice. Some of them just want to have a hand in making a custom frame for themselves. For this latter group I often help out a bit with the hard parts. If you took my class you could decide yourself how well you wanted it to look .

Velo Mule

Thanks again Doug Fattic . I got confused between 650a and 650c. I Like the use of the slightly smaller wheels. The proportions of the frame look great.

I have a Kemper Fluid Writer on order now. And a Beugler pinstripper is next. The angle aluminum is a good tip for keeping the line parallel to the tube. I've got the 3M tape already. I'll try box lining an inexpensive frame that has been my paint test frame. The lug lining has been done already, but the results that the lines are too fat. I used an ink tip from a drafting set. I've got another frame to try out the fluid writer on. I'll post pictures if they are not too embarrassing.

noglider 

I think I understand Charles, and I think I agree, at least at times. It's not that mediocrity is admirable. It's just nice to see slight imperfections on a work approaching perfection. It shows that a human build it, not a machine that has tolerances tighter than our eyes can perceive.

cudak888 

Funny, I find that ridiculously perfect, filed lugs draw me in a lot more. There's no machine that can get such a result; the filing is what shows that a human built it!

Unfiled lugs makes me think of what we see from Fuji and other Japanese and Taiwanese contract builders these days with investment cast lugs. Very nice, definitely better than what you'd see from the average bike boom-era frame, but underwhelming when you realize that such work can be mass-manufactured.

-Kurt

bikingshearer 

This discussion reminds of makers of hand-made rugs who deliberately botch one knot because only God should be perfect.

I can understand and appreciate the Doug Fattic approach - perfection in function and appearance is the goal. I can also understand and appreciate the approach of some of the masters - the bike is primarily a tool and has to be built right, with appearances not ignored but definitely lower priority.

I have an Eisentraut and a Ron Cooper, both made within roughly five years of each other. The inside of the Eisentraut's BB shell is pristine. The mitering looks exquisite in a part of the frame that no one will ever see except whoever installs or removes the bottom bracket. The Cooper, on the other hand, is definitely not pristine. Don't get me wrong, it is done right and is clearly structurally sound, but little if any extra effort went into making pretty a part of the frame that will never show. Different approaches and different ideas, both work just fine. And both look great all built up. Which is better or makes more sense? YMMV.

cudak888 

The lighter my wallet gets, the more it prefers perfection.

-Kurt

Big Block

It is art.

uprightbent

Chapman's bikes seem incredible. The one getting the lug lining is exactly what I lust for.

Except one thing. Can we stop with the seat tube lights? I'm all for retro, and I think it looks great, but to put so much time into making that attachment, wiring it, etc., all to have a light obscured by the fender, especially for smaller frames. And the side or angled views from those approaching behind is no doubt compromised. I'd love to see a clever option, or just a lamp on the chain or seatstay, that's both elegant and functional and on par with these other stunning details.

steelbikeguy

I've seen a lovely Rene Herse displayed with a tail light mounted at the left rear dropout, so there is a basis for that sort of arrangement...




I'm guessing that the seat tube lights might be popular because they are currently in production.

Steve in Peoria