tandempower

There is no 'system' that anyone has to 'join,' though I often get this suggested to me from people who imply that I have to own and drive a car to be 'part of the system.' LCF is a choice, just like driving. How good or bad each choice is, according to which reasons, depends on the perspective of the individual. Some people may see owning and driving a car as part of a 'system' that generates growth and jobs, etc. and imo that is a terrible reason to drive, which makes it more difficult to LCF and promote LCF reform/infrastructure/etc. If I said there is a global 'system' of reforming industrialism to greater levels of efficiency that has been thwarted since the 1960s/70s by big business trying to expand markets for unnecessary and environmentally-harmful products like cars, you and many others would reject the notion that you should go along with and uphold such a 'system.' So why would you apply the same 'system' POV on others who LCF? The fact is that we are all for different 'systems' and we exercise our liberty to choose what we want the 'system' to be by our individual choices, if we are that independent-minded. If not, we feel that there is a 'system' we have to go along with, which overrides any independent choice we might wish to make. Why chastise people for acting in accordance to the 'system' they prefer, instead of accepting someone else's view of the 'the system' must require and thereby foregoing their own independent decision-making?

cooker

Are you here to discuss LCF or promote conspiracy theories?

tandempower

Regardless of whether we agree or not on this matter and how we understand the issues, the views we express in an internet forum are nothing but an expression of freedom, so when you attack others it implies that they are doing more than just expressing thoughts and ideas. You are accusing people of trying to 'force' you to LCF when we just don't want to feel forced to drive by infrastructure, cultural norms, and economic patterns that discourage LCF.

As for environmental protection, preservation, and sustainability; there is nothing wrong with being for those. If someone chooses LCF for the sake of environment or sustainability, you shouldn't chastise them as being anti-modern, leftist, or whatever.

McBTC

Attack-- not at all. Simply noting the hypocrisy and the blatant propaganda supported only by a hidden agenda. Moore is essentially calling it like it is-- modern-day environmentalists are full of it... The West won the argument! – the ‘BRIC’ countries follow our lead and are in the game to the end because it works (China is our chief competitor not because they have better ideas but because they're stealing them):

tandempower

Are you saying that nobody LCFs in BRIC countries?

McBTC

Are you pretending that automobile sales are not rising in... e.g., China? Do you think they sold ~2.7 million bicycles in China in month of October 2017?

McBTC

The bike apparently is becoming less popular in China...

Bicycle Market In China: Shifting Gear for Future Growth

tandempower

From what I've heard, bike sharing is cheap and abundant, electric scooters are also abundant because they are fast middle-distance MVs that are easier to squeeze through traffic and park. Automobiles are favored as a status symbol and investment, as I understand it. China has not experienced recession in many decades so people are constantly seeking investments to keep up with inflation. Many automobile buyers are probably just trying to avoid falling behind in the rat-race, in other words.

jon c. 

I've heard about this since I was child in the 60s. Yet somehow, my liberty has never been imperiled. If anything, the government has relaxed in a few areas that are significant to me. Certainly no one is restricting me from driving or biking wherever and whenever I wish. There are people working on alternatives to the IC engine and perhaps because that would reduce pollution this might be favored by those "leftists", but I don't see that as a threat to my freedom. I look forward to electrics if they get the technology perfected. But I have no fear someone will tell me I can't drive my truck in the future. Or restrict me in any other important way. And I certainly don't see that advocating for improved mass transit threatens my liberty. Given my lifestyle, I'll never be a mass transit user, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't benefit the society in which I live.

McBTC

Ah yezzz-- that old rat race of modernity... e.g.,

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/...last-10-years/

cooker

Not only that, the commies are even seizing everybody's hard earned dollars to build roads for your free use.

tandempower

No, I mean they are buying cars the way they buy condos or anything else, i.e. as an investment in the hope of keeping up with high growth/inflation. It's just another commodity with the hope of it appreciating to get more money, in other words. In a rat race, the rats try to stay near the front of the pack because of the misery that befalls the rats at the back. With real rats, they have no capacity for independent critical thought and volition, but what is sad about a human rat race is that we do have that capacity, yet when we are driven by fear of falling behind in the economic competition, we sacrifice better judgment in favor of what we hope will prevent us from running out of money.

McBTC

For any who must work to live and do not like their job I imagine riding a bike to work might also seem like a rat on a treadmill.

tandempower

If you think that riding a bike is some kind of rat hell, why do you post on the LCF forum? You obviously have no interest in LCF besides condemning it.

McBTC

You convinced me. Bye-bye...

tandempower

Don't you understand that they are simultaneously talking about two different kinds of freedom? One is the freedom to drive without restriction and the other is the freedom that comes with all the economic boosts that come from auto sales and the investments in everything from the stock market to infrastructure those bring. They are saying everyone has to keep paying for cars, insurance, etc. or the flow of money will be impaired. They don't exactly care if some people go LCF but they want the vast majority of people to view participation in the automotive culture as a way of bolstering economic growth for the sake of providing what they see as economic freedom. So they're not just talking about the freedom to choose whether to bike or drive, but the freedom to make money and pay for things at the levels an automotive economy affords. It's not fair to lump these two different types of 'freedom' together, but that is what they do in order to propagate their politics while always accusing car-critical people like me of being political, 'anti-modern,' 'anti-capitalist,' etc. Accusing others of being against their politics without being too explicit about those politics is how they try to maintain the home-court advantage against people whose views they deem hostile to their pro-auto/economy views.

It's a pain when you know that LCF is better in so many ways, yet there are people who hate your POV because they see it as an economic threat. We should be able to discuss how great LCF is and the things we dislike about automotive culture in this forum without always being pushed to be pro-car. It is the 'living car free' forum, after all.

I-Like-To-Bike

FrenchFit 

Not much philosophy in this philosophical argument.

Tell me how you intend to make the population of this country environmentally responsible when the dominate religious dogma preaches it's all going to end in the rapture anyway, it really doesn't matter what we do..in fact we ought to hurry things along, provoke the middle east.

What is the philosophy behind electric cars getting a $10K tax credit, free electricity from govt & private providers, avoiding gas taxes... and that electricity is produced by what...sunshine? Producing those electric cars and batteries is accomplished by... windpower? I don't think so, I think there is a pretty big carbon footprint that the electric cars live in.

The stuff we are doing is on the margin, it is almost meaningless. We are just shuffling deck chairs. Unless there is a fundamental change in the majority population and powerful stakeholders attitudes about the over-arching importance of the long term health of the planet, nothing much changes.

tandempower

FrenchFit 

Where are the unicorns? Where are the rainbows & butterflys?

I-Like-To-Bike

See this blurb about future LCF transportation, just right for LCF Philosophers disconnected from reality.
https://electrek.co/2018/05/16/elon-...spacex-rocket/

Walter S

Who is the "they" that buy cars as an investment?? Cars go down in value from the moment you buy them. Nobody makes money buying cars and holding them while they appreciate in value because that's not what happens. Cars lose value. And they lose value faster if you don't maintain them, which requires "investing" even more money. Are you confusing cars with real estate?

Maelochs

He is confusing fantasy with real.... as is his wont.

Walter S

What does "health" mean with respect to planets? Which planets are healthiest? What improves their health?

Maelochs

I hear Mars hits the gym every day .... Jupiter is soft and slushy by comparison.