Riding "Measurement Free"
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,494
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7653 Post(s)
Liked 3,482 Times
in
1,838 Posts
One day I was watching my speed and thinking "I had better pick up the pace if I want a better average than last week" and realized I had no idea what the scenery looked like ... and I was passing through an area where the setting sun makes some nice colors through the trees.
I like to look at the data after the ride, but I don't care much. It is interesting but even a PR (very rare) doesn't do much for me.
I wholly respect the riders who ride for PRs .... just a different way of stroking, so to speak. For me, i like to ride while i am riding and save the maths for later.
#27
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pinehurst, NC, US
Posts: 1,716
Bikes: 2020 Trek Emonda SL6, 90's Vintage EL-OS Steel Bianchi with 2014 Campy Chorus Upgrade
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 452 Post(s)
Liked 162 Times
in
110 Posts
You can see my posts in the racing forum - power meter training - on this for years. Not only might things be more entertaining, I'm seeing NOT using electronics makes many faster. Measurements have their purpose, but getting on the scale daily, vs weekly is not going to make much of difference. Best measure for going fast is speed. That is so stupid obvious, I don't understand why all the obsession with power, or even HR. How fast did you go?
dave
ps. And if your focus is riding position and efficiency, a given ride (power or not) probably won't answer that one.
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3375 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
Speed matters. But on any given day it may or may not be a meaningful comparison with other rides. Surfaces vary. Elevation varies. Wind varies (and this can be a huge deal even with a constant wind and a loop course). If you want to know (for sure) "what did I do today?", power always answers that question. Speed might or might not on a given day.
dave
ps. And if your focus is riding position and efficiency, a given ride (power or not) probably won't answer that one.
dave
ps. And if your focus is riding position and efficiency, a given ride (power or not) probably won't answer that one.
Then track requires Measurment Free. Would Wiggins have been faster with a PM? Don't know - he didn't have one.
This idea is not weird to the fastest. It seems to be weird on BF however and to folks that read books about it.
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
FWIW - I dwell on riding position for efficiency as much as I work on aerobic capability and power generation - frequently allows me to ride equally with stronger/younger riders, except in the mountains. Isn't overcoming air resistance (except for serious climbing) the biggest obstacle in attaining speed??? I would appreciate a wind tunnel session every couple of years more than a wireless data generation device.
Likes For Seattle Forrest:
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
I went crazy fast coming down from Barlow Pass, and that one time in my entire life when I had a tail wind. I was going slower than a grandmother up the road to Slate Peak. Because I have a power meter, I can compare my performance on both days and see whether this creatine stuff is working.
#31
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pinehurst, NC, US
Posts: 1,716
Bikes: 2020 Trek Emonda SL6, 90's Vintage EL-OS Steel Bianchi with 2014 Campy Chorus Upgrade
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 452 Post(s)
Liked 162 Times
in
110 Posts
Some of the fastest <70 year old fastest TT riders in the world are on record going measurement free in the event. Fabian said that, Taylor Finny rides free as does Cam Wurf (2X Kona record).
Then track requires Measurment Free. Would Wiggins have been faster with a PM? Don't know - he didn't have one.
This idea is not weird to the fastest. It seems to be weird on BF however and to folks that read books about it.
Then track requires Measurment Free. Would Wiggins have been faster with a PM? Don't know - he didn't have one.
This idea is not weird to the fastest. It seems to be weird on BF however and to folks that read books about it.
Dave
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3375 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
I went crazy fast coming down from Barlow Pass, and that one time in my entire life when I had a tail wind. I was going slower than a grandmother up the road to Slate Peak. Because I have a power meter, I can compare my performance on both days and see whether this creatine stuff is working.
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3375 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
In the race it is heavily used by the folks in the cars.
On the USA and 99% of those on this forum - it is mostly useless. Show me someone who trains and races with a PM, I'll show you someone who is faster and doesn't.
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
Going by feel is just way less precise.
I use the numbers on the weights at the gym, too. I don't know anybody who doesn't. Do you?
#35
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pinehurst, NC, US
Posts: 1,716
Bikes: 2020 Trek Emonda SL6, 90's Vintage EL-OS Steel Bianchi with 2014 Campy Chorus Upgrade
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 452 Post(s)
Liked 162 Times
in
110 Posts
100% have it. Their coaches see it and then tell them what to do. I think a very small % use power to train personally.
In the race it is heavily used by the folks in the cars.
On the USA and 99% of those on this forum - it is mostly useless. Show me someone who trains and races with a PM, I'll show you someone who is faster and doesn't.
In the race it is heavily used by the folks in the cars.
On the USA and 99% of those on this forum - it is mostly useless. Show me someone who trains and races with a PM, I'll show you someone who is faster and doesn't.
This is not an argument (IMHO). WAY/WAY too many variables at play.
dave
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3375 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
The days when I'm fastest are usually the ones when I've been training a lot, and then took a couple days off. And that makes sense, right? Build a lot of fitness, taper a little. Those days, I feel like I'm not doing any effort at all. Says when I'm overcooked, I feel like I'm working really hard, but I'm not getting much for it.
Going by feel is just way less precise.
I use the numbers on the weights at the gym, too. I don't know anybody who doesn't. Do you?
Going by feel is just way less precise.
I use the numbers on the weights at the gym, too. I don't know anybody who doesn't. Do you?
I ask junior how many pull-ups he can do. He does not know. He does them holding plates in his legs because he works to fatigue, not a number. When he gets much above 12 reps, he goes to bigger plates.
These are 4-5 year old videos, but this was a (permission used for gym video) typical gym session.
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,494
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7653 Post(s)
Liked 3,482 Times
in
1,838 Posts
#38
6-4 Titanium
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 330
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 36 Times
in
31 Posts
For context I have been riding around 150 to 200 miles per week pretty regularly since 2015, although that dropped off a bit the past 12 to 18 months. Other than a timed solo 50 miler just to see what I could do and a solo century (hit my goal of a sub 5 hour ride), I had no particular goals (I ride alone by choice) and no other 'competitive rides'. And I do hit age 70 in a few months.
The old guys here and their tall tales...I tell you...sigh.
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3375 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
This is an argument? How about "show me somebody with n inches of extra fatroll around their belly and I will show you someone with n+1 inches of fatroll around their belly who is faster, proving that extra fat doesn't matter.
This is not an argument (IMHO). WAY/WAY too many variables at play.
dave
This is not an argument (IMHO). WAY/WAY too many variables at play.
dave
I subscribe to train to fatigue give better results than train to a number. You don't stop when you hit the number. You stop when you can't go any more. Then you rest. You don't rest a set amount of hours. You rest until the body's measurable indicators show you can train to fatigue again.
That is a very hard way to train. If you can do that, you will get greater gains than training to a number, be it power, HR or weights on the rack.
#40
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
Yes. Everyone working under my kid's coach (former Mr. Olympia), so my kid, his friends (All <U18 Cat 1s). You hit my key point. Working to a number is less efficient than working to failure. The only number is resting HR and when you are ready to do it again. You might not be ready to work to fatigue on Wed if you did it on Mon (and road Tue).
I ask junior how many pull-ups he can do. He does not know. He does them holding plates in his legs because he works to fatigue, not a number. When he gets much above 12 reps, he goes to bigger plates.
These are 4-5 year old videos, but this was a (permission used for gym video) typical gym session.
https://youtu.be/hjSbJMaBu3k
I ask junior how many pull-ups he can do. He does not know. He does them holding plates in his legs because he works to fatigue, not a number. When he gets much above 12 reps, he goes to bigger plates.
These are 4-5 year old videos, but this was a (permission used for gym video) typical gym session.
https://youtu.be/hjSbJMaBu3k
Why does he go to bigger and heavier plates when he needs to accomplish more work, instead of picking them at random? It's because measurements are useful. I can't believe we're debating whether a technology we've had for ten thousand years (numbers) is useful or not.
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3375 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
Of course you know a range. We all know about how fast we can hold for an hour (FTP). We know that weight is going to be someplace X#.
This is a simple concept you buy it or you don't...
You pump your tires to what feels right, or you pump to a PSI (generally determined on what feels right).
Top runners don't have PMs. Cycling track riders (world records) don't have PMs. Those are racing, not training, but examples where numbers are not available to the athlete.
So in training why use a number to restrain yourself (a made up number) or to push yourself (also a made up number). Why not just do what your body will take.
Measure on the road how well you did by how fast you go when rested.
The point of training is to tear down without injury and then recover and build. Why stop if you could have done one more? Why over do it if not rested, warmed up or fatigued?
If you warm up well to avoid injury then...
A: do 10X fixed weight and stop as that is the number (could you have done more, did you do too much)?
OR
B: Just go until you can't finish. Fully rest and repeat (on another day).
A and B are different. I think B works better for max gain.
#42
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pinehurst, NC, US
Posts: 1,716
Bikes: 2020 Trek Emonda SL6, 90's Vintage EL-OS Steel Bianchi with 2014 Campy Chorus Upgrade
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 452 Post(s)
Liked 162 Times
in
110 Posts
Ok so you did 100 miles in less than five hours...which means you'd have to average over 20mph for 100 miles.....solo. If you told me it was a group, I'd believe you, but solo? For a strong tour rider sure, they can do it...but some 70 year old dude...no.
The old guys here and their tall tales...I tell you...sigh.
The old guys here and their tall tales...I tell you...sigh.
https://www.strava.com/activities/444924309
dave
ps. The really strange route was picked to (mostly) avoid chipseal surfaces.
#43
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
Pretty much. We had the gym girls sitting on the racks - they didn't want to be in the video and you don't ask them their weight.
Of course you know a range. We all know about how fast we can hold for an hour (FTP). We know that weight is going to be someplace X#.
This is a simple concept you buy it or you don't...
You pump your tires to what feels right, or you pump to a PSI (generally determined on what feels right).
Top runners don't have PMs. Cycling track riders (world records) don't have PMs. Those are racing, not training, but examples where numbers are not available to the athlete.
So in training why use a number to restrain yourself (a made up number) or to push yourself (also a made up number). Why not just do what your body will take.
Measure on the road how well you did by how fast you go when rested.
The point of training is to tear down without injury and then recover and build. Why stop if you could have done one more? Why over do it if not rested, warmed up or fatigued?
If you warm up well to avoid injury then...
A: do 10X fixed weight and stop as that is the number (could you have done more, did you do too much)?
OR
B: Just go until you can't finish. Fully rest and repeat (on another day).
A and B are different. I think B works better for max gain.
Of course you know a range. We all know about how fast we can hold for an hour (FTP). We know that weight is going to be someplace X#.
This is a simple concept you buy it or you don't...
You pump your tires to what feels right, or you pump to a PSI (generally determined on what feels right).
Top runners don't have PMs. Cycling track riders (world records) don't have PMs. Those are racing, not training, but examples where numbers are not available to the athlete.
So in training why use a number to restrain yourself (a made up number) or to push yourself (also a made up number). Why not just do what your body will take.
Measure on the road how well you did by how fast you go when rested.
The point of training is to tear down without injury and then recover and build. Why stop if you could have done one more? Why over do it if not rested, warmed up or fatigued?
If you warm up well to avoid injury then...
A: do 10X fixed weight and stop as that is the number (could you have done more, did you do too much)?
OR
B: Just go until you can't finish. Fully rest and repeat (on another day).
A and B are different. I think B works better for max gain.
Likes For Seattle Forrest:
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3375 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
We are getting bigger faster stronger the last 10 years than the last 1,000. So I don't know why not debate it.
4 min miles are done by kids in HS now and nobody over a century ago did that. It is not PMs that made that difference (or wrist watch).
I am debating if the number matters at all. I have no video, but the pull-up example is best.
Do pull-ups. You don't know your exact weight, you just put plates or dumbbells between your feet.
Like pedaling cadence you have a pull-up cadence without a device to measure. You know 1/sec is too fast and 1/3sec is too slow.
Every 6 months or so do a test (real thing as that is juniors requirement). See who does better.
I always dadbrag about my son. I started this 70s with classmates. 90s with wife.
Here is my daughter (dadbrag) training to fatigue before we really started adding plates. I don't know how many plates we added. She went to fatigue, then added plates.
How high could she jump? Always high enough.
Last edited by Doge; 06-24-19 at 04:01 PM.
Likes For Doge:
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3375 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
That is true. Are they looking at their watch to see how fast they should go, or looking to see how fast they did go?
#46
Me duelen las nalgas
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 13,513
Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel
Mentioned: 199 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4560 Post(s)
Liked 2,802 Times
in
1,800 Posts
At the Giro this year, GCN asked several pros whether they raced to power. Most said no. As Doge said, most use it for training and the coaches monitor it during/after a race.
I can see how it might be useful during a time trial or extended solo breakaway. For pros and serious amateur racers.
But my body and subjective feel are pretty reliable gauges for me. It doesn't much matter what the data said about last week's ride at 75 degrees when I felt like half my age again. If the heat index is 111F today and my thyroid level is wonky again or my heart rate isn't behaving, I'm gonna go by my feels-like gauge.
I'm mainly interested in my fitness trends over time, so I check that via the Elevate extension for Strava.
Also, omitting the bike computer leaves more room for my Peruvian Pan flute on my handlebar. The faster I go, or the stronger the headwind, the better it sounds. That's pretty good motivation.
I can see how it might be useful during a time trial or extended solo breakaway. For pros and serious amateur racers.
But my body and subjective feel are pretty reliable gauges for me. It doesn't much matter what the data said about last week's ride at 75 degrees when I felt like half my age again. If the heat index is 111F today and my thyroid level is wonky again or my heart rate isn't behaving, I'm gonna go by my feels-like gauge.
I'm mainly interested in my fitness trends over time, so I check that via the Elevate extension for Strava.
Also, omitting the bike computer leaves more room for my Peruvian Pan flute on my handlebar. The faster I go, or the stronger the headwind, the better it sounds. That's pretty good motivation.
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3375 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
I know others that I have personal comments from. Just better to post those that have posted.
These two were easy to find. If you don't know who they are, then you really should not be arguing the point.
Taylor (no radio, no numbers ~2:30) "Be a slave to speed" -
Last edited by Doge; 06-24-19 at 05:37 PM.
#48
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pinehurst, NC, US
Posts: 1,716
Bikes: 2020 Trek Emonda SL6, 90's Vintage EL-OS Steel Bianchi with 2014 Campy Chorus Upgrade
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 452 Post(s)
Liked 162 Times
in
110 Posts
Ok so you did 100 miles in less than five hours...which means you'd have to average over 20mph for 100 miles.....solo. If you told me it was a group, I'd believe you, but solo? For a strong tour rider sure, they can do it...but some 70 year old dude...no.
The old guys here and their tall tales...I tell you...sigh.
The old guys here and their tall tales...I tell you...sigh.
I was 66 when I did it. Do you also want the power file?
https://www.strava.com/activities/444924309
dave
ps. The really strange route was picked to (mostly) avoid chipseal surfaces.
https://www.strava.com/activities/444924309
dave
ps. The really strange route was picked to (mostly) avoid chipseal surfaces.
I guess that I should add that the kids here have no idea what can and cannot be done, and should be paying more attention to their elders ... sigh"
dave
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
They're looking at their watch to see how fast they're currently going in relation to how fast they should be going. If I try to take a marathon at my 10k pace, I'm gonna blow up before it's half over. This is very much like how cyclists use power meters for pacing.
#50
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pinehurst, NC, US
Posts: 1,716
Bikes: 2020 Trek Emonda SL6, 90's Vintage EL-OS Steel Bianchi with 2014 Campy Chorus Upgrade
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 452 Post(s)
Liked 162 Times
in
110 Posts
They're looking at their watch to see how fast they're currently going in relation to how fast they should be going. If I try to take a marathon at my 10k pace, I'm gonna blow up before it's half over. This is very much like how cyclists use power meters for pacing.
dave
ps. If Rosie had really run the race she said then she would have passed me somewhere in the last 3rd of the race. There were very few females in the race at that time and any time you were around a woman there would be this 'roar' that just followed you and her (followed her anyway). No way could she 'sneak around me'.