CB HI

OP - how are you going to magically cause intersections to disappear. Most collisions occur at intersections regardless if there are separated lanes or not.

KD5NRH

No matter how many times you say it isn't true, you're not going to be able to show us hundreds of incidents where drivers have sideswiped or knocked mirrors with cars they were passing, while precisely those are significant car/truck vs cyclist collision occurrences.

CB HI

Separated lanes simply cause more right and left hooks at intersections.

General Geoff

Your belief is not required, thankfully

I've personally bore witness to many more mirror strikes between cars than any contact between cars and cyclists. Even been involved in a few.

raria

No driver will try to punish pass another car or truck. Because if they do and they make contact they're in real trouble. With a bike there is no such danger if you punish pass.

raria

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Here in France the bike/ bus lane lights are on a different cycle to the Car lane. That prevents any collisions at corners

Daniel4

The right hooks I've seen are when the separation turns into dotted lines. When the physical barriers are in place, I see motorists keeping alert.

I haven't seen left hooks being affected by bike lanes.

Trevtassie

Strict liability laws, where the punishment is jail time seems to work pretty good in Japan.... and also putting in large verges and footpaths everywhere.

Daniel4

In Toronto, our Mayor has pledged a VisionZero
campaign. But in the two years since implementation, pedestrian and cyclist road-deaths are still on track as before VisionZero.

Whenever city planners design separated bike lanes, this same Mayor puts up a big fight against them.

The Bloor Bike Lane pilot project was supported by the Mayor only after the planners had reduced the car commute time from 8 minutes of delay to 4 minutes and that the final report showed overall improvements and community support.

A second pilot project is removing car flow-through traffic from King Street. When businesses complained (during the winter) that business was down the Mayor offered incentives to attract car traffic into the area.

A third study is the re-design a portion of Yonge Street that's in the suburbs to make it more residential-friendly. Unfortunately, this area is the same place where that rampage took place killing 10 people. The Mayor was opposed to the re-design because it proposed for cars to give up two lanes.

CB HI

Maelochs

I would much rather be hit by a bus than a car? is that the message we want to send?

Seriously, the divider in the photo posted above (way above, before the dishonest and contentious BS) wouldn't stop a car at all. it is just a speed bump. Smart, respectful drivers will still be smart and respectful, and other drivers will still be causing collisions.

The issues I have with divided lanes are the divider and the lane.First----any divider which is less than four feet tall is just inviting a spill into traffic.

Let's not pretend that all cyclists are always attentive all the time. So ... say a cyclist spaces for a second and wavers a little---or hits some debris, or skids on something. The cyclist hits the left-side barrier Anywhere below center of gravity and possible topples over the barrier into traffic.

This bothers me because of salmon, stupid cyclists I might need to overtake, stupid cyclists overtaking me ... on any road where i would need a separate lane to be safe, I would need to have enough room to deal with all that---say, six feet---or the barrier itself would become a hazard.

That French barrier shown above is just enough to knock down a cyclist how got squeezed wide by a happy, smilling, waving salmon with grocery bags hanging from the handlebars, three feet wide in a four-foot lane. And I have met them on a few occasions.

Second, where does the lane come from? Most roads don't have the space for a six-foot lane---or a four-foot lane with a one-foot-wide wall. What kind of wall ids actually going to provide protection for cyclists from cars and at the same time Not be as wide as a K-rail? So now we are looking at a lot more real estate coming form Somewhere.

Also ... If the barrier were tall enough and wide enough to actually be a "barrier" to cars, then it would cordon off the bike lane. Great, until you needed to make a turn. So ... maybe ten-inch diameter concrete poles spaced far enough to allow a bike to stop and turn? or else little tiny barrier segments so riders could hop into the left traffic lane and take any side street---but wait, then you have bikes in traffic again.

Also, drainage and cleaning would be really important. if the bike lane (being on the outer edge of a crowned road) turned into a swamp, a pond, and a series of sand bars, then riding there would be more, not less hazardous. There would need to be a right-hand curb of some sort to discourage pedestrians from accidentally stepping into the bike lane---and from what I have seen with existing bike lanes, water runs down the edges of the road, carrying sand, gravel, leaves, pine needles, lawn clipping, trash ... and it builds up against the curb if there is one.
Are cities going to commission and purchase bike-lane sweeping machines like they have street-sweeping trucks?

The France thing is interesting ... where do the cyclists go when buses stop ahead and come up behind? Do cyclists have to follow buses and stop at every stop? I have done that unfortunately ... great way to get black-lung disease.

Also ... are there bus lanes Everywhere, or just on certain streets? I have never been in a U.S. city with enough bus traffic to make bus-only lanes financially feasible.

CliffordK

Ever hear of "road rage"? Perhaps a car will conduct a pass, then slam on the brakes once past the vehicle.

Yes, it happens.

CliffordK

Yep...

Communities need to utilize the resources they have available. For example uninterrupted riverfront bike lanes, or along divided highways.

In some cases one can make elevated crossings or tunnels, but this isn't practical in general unless one is building an elevated walkway system in the middle of a city, which would be an extraordinary project unless one was re-utilizing a former elevated railway (which NYC apparently did before closing it to bikes).

But overlapping a bike grid over a car grid doesn't make sense in general.

Perhaps target primary arterial roads with bike paths, then have a design to share the road for secondary roads.

In fact, for my bike commuting, some of my favorite routes are on shared access residential neighborhood roads.

Likewise, I'd like to see more bike paths parallel to arterial rural roads, but they are unnecessary for many low traffic rural roads.

SHBR

What terrible road design.

Two way bike lane traffic on the wrong side of the road.

Segregated bike lanes only make sense on wide high traffic roads, not here, this is a joke, for all road users.

joesch

A good goal and some cities like Seattle have bike lanes separate from roads and sidewalks ...

A protected bike lane combines the user experience of a multi-use trail with a conventional bike lane. They have different forms, but all share common elements — they provide space that is used for bicycles and are separated from motor vehicle travel lanes, parking lanes and sidewalks.

https://www.seattle.gov/transportati...ted-bike-lanes

Milton Keynes

My main problem with "separate but equal" is that it's almost always separate, but never equal. I live in a rural area, and am one of the few cyclists around, so I doubt anyone's going to build separate bike paths for me, though that would be nice.

raria

A few people wonder about turns and causing collissions and intersections "magically disappearing". As mentioned earlier in France the car lane and the bike/bus lane are on *different* light cycles so this can't happen.

@Maelochs wonders about sucking in fumes. Buses just don't run that often. On a 10 minute commute I'd be lucky to see bus. On weekends its even rarer.
@CliffordK seems to think that we would overlay bikelanes on the entire grid. But this could only done on major arterials.

A few people believe that car drivers will just use the bike lane even though they shouldn't. This is easy to fix. In many countries you just send a photo of the car with a date, your address and contact number and the police issue a citation. Most police departments are only too grateful for the extra revenue.

This may sound like an unlikely option. But just look at how the other options (i.e. better enforcement, stricter penalities etc. are going) currently covered in this forum are going. Just look at this thread 6 year sentence for DUI man who killed cyclist in Oregon to summarize:
i) Drunk driver kills cyclists driving 80 in a 35 zone. Police says he has no remorse. Defendant says his background is to blame. Judge sentences him to six years jail.
ii) Now look at the comments by the population Man driving drunk and high gets 6 years in prison, license revoked after killing cyclist | KATU There is such a hatred towards cyclists they've ignored that all the facts.

CB HI

Which causes additional delays for everyone.
Two minutes of light for pedestrians, two minutes of light for motorist and two minutes of light for cyclist. That math says that to travel, one must spend 2/3 of their time stopped at a red light. A 20 minute ride with normal traffic lights now becomes a 45 to 50 minute ride.

CB HI

And this drunk driver who killed a cyclist on the sidewalk would have had to drive through your magic bus lane to get to the sidewalk. That might have killed 2 cyclist, one in the magic bus lane and one on the sidewalk.

Maelochs

Not saying it doesn't work for some people or in some places ... but what's a 10-minute commute? Ten minutes, do you work in your neighbor's house?

I cannot see building bike/bus lanes unless there are a lot of buses ... just like I cannot see building bike lanes if there aren't that many people riding bikes. After all, I am paying for all that stuff, and whatever gets built and not used represents something which maybe needed upkeep or improvement and didn't get it. I mean, we could all petition for all cars to be banned everywhere, so we could all ride everywhere, safely. But here in reality, where everything has costs, and everyone needs to co-exist .....

As fro the fact that drivers hitting cyclists don't always get severe penalties ... yeah. And since some men beat their wives, the answer is to ban marriage? How about addressing the issue of spousal violence?

And how about addressing the injustice of drivers getting off lightly for killing cyclists? Solve the actual problem, right?

And thanks for the links ... you can find some other links on this page where drunk/impaired drivers got convicted of murder and got strong sentences. It doesn't happen often enough ... but it does happen, and if cyclists speak up at civic meetings instead on whining on internet forums, it might happen more.

Intersections are always going to be difficult in urban environments. There isn't any easy way to keep things moving in conflicting directions without conflict. I do know that if drivers sit too long at a light, they either get angry or lose focus, or both. I also know that angry, frustrated drivers tend to do stupid things ... like driving into a bike lane ... "Man, I only need to go half a block to get to that driveway and I have been sitting here for 18 minutes ... I am just going to cheat a little ... "

As for cameras ... okay, buy me a few cameras. And hopefully I am behind the guy who drives in the bike lane, not under him, right?

But suppose i see a car in the bike lane 50 metersd ahead? I cannopt read his plate, the camera cannot resolve numbers at that range, and the car is faster than I.

Again, that is Not a solution, and instead tries to sidestep the problem. If you don't wan't cars to cross some line or a speed bump, you need more than a line or a speed bump.

You yourself posted about a driver hitting a pedestrian On A Sidewalk. I guess pedestrians should all buy cameras.

I am sure the system in France works, at least a little better than not having it. Once people get used to it stuff tends to work better too. But as far as that being a perfect or a fool-proof system ... not so much. And as for it working in America ... the problem here is that most drivers are Americans, raised from birth to believe that whatever they do is right, they can go anywhere they want, and whoever tells them otherwise is an enemy of freedom.

In America, when people get frustrated in traffic they shoot each other. So ... saved by a speed bump? Maybe not.

CliffordK

One of the issues of building bus express lanes... is that people expect them to be bus express lanes, not lanes in which buses will follow cyclists at 10 MPH.

We have a couple of bus express lanes, not marked as "shared" that I've occasionally jumped onto.

The problem is that if I saw a bus coming up behind me, I could be in big trouble as there is no place to escape.

raria

You have a great way with words but there are lots of counter examples of the minority trumping the majority. Think about the americans with disabilities act etc.

The problem with your statement that I bolded is that is the current solution and it just does not work. Just have a look at the comments section of any news paper with a bike crash or something else bike related. There are people who just perceive cyclists as pests. As long as that attidued persist complete integration cannot occur.

Similary the judical system does not hold drivers accountable if they hit a cyclists. There seems to be this perception that cyclists are riding at their own peril and if they die they they knew the risk they were taking so that mitigates the penalty on the driver.

My point is that you'll never change these attitudes which are the opposite of what is required for "integration" solution.

Maelochs

That is garbage.

"Separate but Equal" works fine ... with pedestrians and cars. Are you suggesting that all sidewalks be torn up and pedestrians be made to walk on the roadway?

You got hung up on a phrase made famous in the Civil Rights era, and totally failed to grasp that it is being used in a completely different way here.

raria

Just look at this incident to understand why separate but equal roads/path is required.
Driver who hit cyclist on Natchez Trace Parkway pleads guilty

To summarize.

The Incident

1) Driver hits cyclist and leaves the scene without stopping.
2) Witnesses and co-cyclist say it was deliberate, he sped up and that he had tried to do this before
3) Police went to his home and he denied he hit the cyclist.
4) Instead said the cyclist threw their bike at him (I'm guessing he didn't know there was a video).
5) He tried to remove the identifying stickers from his car.

The Criminal Case

1) He had a number of charges filed against him including failing to stop, render aid, lying to police, evidence tampering etc.
2) If found guilty on all of them could have served 37 years
3) DA and Defence lawyer come up with a plea deal for 10 months + $1200 payment for the bike.

This is one of the few cases with video evidence. What would have happened if there was no video?

Maelochs

Again, you learn the wrong lesson in an effort to prove a point.

This was a driver who Wanted to hit cyclists ... he was accused of trying to hit cyclists previously.

Do you really think a SPEED BUMP would inhibit him?

This guy would gladly have run over a speed bump to hit a rider. You vaunted "French System" would be useless in this case.

The issue in this case was precisely the flaws in our justice system, in which a person with a lot of social and political connections can literally get away with murder. How are some speed bumps going to change that?

The other question is ... how are you going to fit separate bike lanes in every place where cars and bikes share the road, if the city is not designed to accommodate them? If there are dedicated bus lanes, then they could become bike/bus lanes ... which would do nothing in a case where a driver Wanted to hit cyclists, but might help in some situations.

However, most cities do not have or need separate bus lanes ... and do not have enough bike traffic to justify bike lanes.

One could say that "if you build it, they will come ..." And anyone who wants to put up the hundreds of millions of dollars required to build roadways is welcome to foot the bill and take the risk. Most cities' budgets don't have a lot of extra cash, and nobody wants to build dedicated bike lanes only to see almost no one using them.

Also, as has been noted ... even in cities where there is some bike use, in most of the world at least several months of each year are not suitable for most cyclists because of climate.

Would a system like France uses, work in some cities? Yes, I think so. Would there be enough bike traffic to justify the expense, and the loss of a traffic lane? I don't know and neither do you.

If the bike-lane-share initiative was coupled by an significant increase in bus traffic, that might help ... but are there really that many people who want to ride buses who aren't being serviced now? Not likely. And the other issue with buses is that they are packed for morning and evening rush hour and don't get much usage for half the day ... which means the buses are parked and the bus lanes are empty and traffic is more congested on the remaining road surface.

Are there solutions? Yes, but it is likely that there are only reasonable solutions and only very specific solutions for each urban area---maybe even different solutions would be needed for different parts of the same city.

One point I think Everyone is overlooking----we are all accepting the premise that there is a Need to have cyclists segregated for safety.

As a person who has been cycling for five decades and cycling in urban/dense suburban areas for more than three, I don't think this is needed.

And by far the more universal, more efficient, and more noble solution would be to introduce some equity---some Justice---into America's diseased and disgusting "Justice" system.

One closing point---Drunk Driving, in my lifetime, went from being fodder for comedy and completely socially acceptable, to being a serious offense with considerable stigma.

Notice no one built separate drunk-driver lanes.