Loaded touring... 3x6 or 3x7?
#26
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What year 520? Care to post a picture?
Above is my ‘84! Nice bikes!
#27
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I've been riding a long time and never did half step. Never wanted to. When I hit the 54/53/52-42 racing setup I felt I hit gold. Stopped racing and added an inside 28 tooth ring. Kept my close racing freewheel and added bigger cogs as FWs went to 6, 7, 8 an 9 cogs. My geared bikes are now
Fast road: 53-42-28 X any 9-speed casette from 12 to 28
Winter/rain/city/gravel: 52-42-26 X 14-28 7-speed. If I toured this bike, I would tweak it to 48-38-24 X probably the same 14-28 7-speed. Turning it to a 9-speed (on a different bike) and keeping the same range, just getting closer spacing would be first class.
I ride the vast majority on the middle ring using the whole FW/casstte. Loaded, I try to spend little time on the smallest cogs and use the big ring instead. I like having some overlap between the inner rnage and the middle range so I can do poor cross-overs briefly when hills level out to avoid double shifts.
Oh, edit: I forgot to ask what your dropout spacing is. (Inside measurement of the rear dropout flats or outside measurement of your rear hub locknuts. The bike measurement is usually a mm or 2 bigger to make getting the wheel in easy. Standard measurements are 120 (old 5-speed or narrow 6-speed, 126 (old 6-speed or 7-speed) and 130 (9/10/11 -speed). I'm guessing your bike is 126 but that is just a guess. It could be made to any of the standards depending on the year and widened later by an owner. If it is 126 and you want to keep it 126 (or 120 and you want to stretch it to 126), I'd go 7-speed unless there was a real reason to stay with the old 5-speed/old 6-speed chain standard. (You are in love with those old wide-standard chainrings?) 7-speed gives you more cogs, better spacing and is available easily in current manufacture FWs (and I assume cassettes though I really do not know). I'd seriously consider a 7-speed Phil Wood rear hub unless I was going to go with a cassette(see last sentence). Old 6-speed. 7-speed FW hubs have the weakness that they have long unsupported axle to the rightside and tend to break them. For loaded touring, I'd go Phil Wood there, not cheap. You can ride a busted rear axle until you remove the wheel. When you undo the quick-release, all your bearings will fall out if the hub is a loose bearing cup and cone hub.
Ben
Fast road: 53-42-28 X any 9-speed casette from 12 to 28
Winter/rain/city/gravel: 52-42-26 X 14-28 7-speed. If I toured this bike, I would tweak it to 48-38-24 X probably the same 14-28 7-speed. Turning it to a 9-speed (on a different bike) and keeping the same range, just getting closer spacing would be first class.
I ride the vast majority on the middle ring using the whole FW/casstte. Loaded, I try to spend little time on the smallest cogs and use the big ring instead. I like having some overlap between the inner rnage and the middle range so I can do poor cross-overs briefly when hills level out to avoid double shifts.
Oh, edit: I forgot to ask what your dropout spacing is. (Inside measurement of the rear dropout flats or outside measurement of your rear hub locknuts. The bike measurement is usually a mm or 2 bigger to make getting the wheel in easy. Standard measurements are 120 (old 5-speed or narrow 6-speed, 126 (old 6-speed or 7-speed) and 130 (9/10/11 -speed). I'm guessing your bike is 126 but that is just a guess. It could be made to any of the standards depending on the year and widened later by an owner. If it is 126 and you want to keep it 126 (or 120 and you want to stretch it to 126), I'd go 7-speed unless there was a real reason to stay with the old 5-speed/old 6-speed chain standard. (You are in love with those old wide-standard chainrings?) 7-speed gives you more cogs, better spacing and is available easily in current manufacture FWs (and I assume cassettes though I really do not know). I'd seriously consider a 7-speed Phil Wood rear hub unless I was going to go with a cassette(see last sentence). Old 6-speed. 7-speed FW hubs have the weakness that they have long unsupported axle to the rightside and tend to break them. For loaded touring, I'd go Phil Wood there, not cheap. You can ride a busted rear axle until you remove the wheel. When you undo the quick-release, all your bearings will fall out if the hub is a loose bearing cup and cone hub.
Ben
Last edited by 79pmooney; 11-25-18 at 12:18 AM.
#28
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For what it's worth, my mountain bike currently has my only wide-range "touring" triple. I am very partial to either half-step-plus-granny or 1.5-step-plus-granny, to reduce the number of redundancies.
I used to run 3x7 with a freewheel: 48-40-24 / 13-15-17-19-22-24-26, but currently run 3x8 with a cassette: 48-40-24 / 12-13-15-17-19-22-25-28
The 24-40 shift cannot be done under load, but I am very old school in my shifting technique and never "power shift," anyway, and there is no reason not to spin on the granny before moving up to the cruising range. I use the 40 and the 24 offroad and the 48 and 40 on road.
I also really liked the narrower-range 3x6 I put on the Peugeot: 48-45-34 / 13-15-17-19-21-24, which a regular short-cage SunTour Cyclone II handled well. (The Simplex dropout of the 1980 PKN-10 can easily accommodate other makes of derailleurs quite easily.)
I used to run 3x7 with a freewheel: 48-40-24 / 13-15-17-19-22-24-26, but currently run 3x8 with a cassette: 48-40-24 / 12-13-15-17-19-22-25-28
The 24-40 shift cannot be done under load, but I am very old school in my shifting technique and never "power shift," anyway, and there is no reason not to spin on the granny before moving up to the cruising range. I use the 40 and the 24 offroad and the 48 and 40 on road.
I also really liked the narrower-range 3x6 I put on the Peugeot: 48-45-34 / 13-15-17-19-21-24, which a regular short-cage SunTour Cyclone II handled well. (The Simplex dropout of the 1980 PKN-10 can easily accommodate other makes of derailleurs quite easily.)
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Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
#29
Senior Member
That’s my planned half step/freewheel combo, but with an added 28 for a 7 speed. The steps don’t seem too close together at all?
#30
feros ferio
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The ratiometric steps are ideal, in my book -- right around 6 to 7 percent. This is similar to the popular old 49-46/14-16-18-20-23 combo. Back in my 2x5 days I ran 50-47/14-16-18-20-23 for flat land riding, swapping in a 42 to make a 1.5-step for hill work. I still use the latter, but with a 6-speed, which gives me a welcome 26T granny, similar to what you are proposing with your 28T.
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"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
#31
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This is what I am running on my Batavus Randonneur GL:
Ritzelrechner
52/42/32 x 14-32 freewheel.
What I find is that I am often wishing for something in between 52x14 and 52x17. That's the downside of a larger spread on a limited number of cogs.
My next upgrade would probably be a 8/9/10-speed cassette and a 26/28T granny gear chainring up front.
EDIT:
@deux jambes Let's visualize what you are planning, assuming you use your current setup with a common 14-28T 6-speed:
Link to Gear-calculator. Slide cogs and settings to see the effect on range.
For loaded touring, assuming all those panniers are full and weigh a total of 20kg... Cyclingabout advises a low gear of around 20-25 gear inches. Which you could reach with a 32/34 large cog rear freewheel.
Ritzelrechner
52/42/32 x 14-32 freewheel.
What I find is that I am often wishing for something in between 52x14 and 52x17. That's the downside of a larger spread on a limited number of cogs.
My next upgrade would probably be a 8/9/10-speed cassette and a 26/28T granny gear chainring up front.
EDIT:
@deux jambes Let's visualize what you are planning, assuming you use your current setup with a common 14-28T 6-speed:
Link to Gear-calculator. Slide cogs and settings to see the effect on range.
For loaded touring, assuming all those panniers are full and weigh a total of 20kg... Cyclingabout advises a low gear of around 20-25 gear inches. Which you could reach with a 32/34 large cog rear freewheel.
14 - 16 - 19 - 22 - 25 - 29 - 34. So one question is, can you buy a freewheel (need a threaded freewheel hub) or a cassette hub with this exact toothset? I think you can get a 14-34, but all seven need to match this specification.
The spacing factor is 1.16. To make the gear progression smooth, the ratio of the middle and large chainrings has to be half that, or 1.08. If for a decently high but not crazy 100 inch top gear, I need a 52 tooth chainring. It's also easy to buy. The matching middle ring is 48 teeth, also easy to buy. For the small ring, I assume a 16 tooth reduction, so you need a 32 tooth granny.
So you HAVE to find a 7-speed freewheel or cassette with tooth counts as I specified, AND you have to find a triple-capable crankset for 52-48, and you have to use those tooth counts. For the granny ring you can use what you want as long as it works. I think "16 teeth smaller than the next gear" is a workable target.
This gearing set gives you a gear range from 25.4" up to 100.3" (nearly 4 to one!), and has a gear inch increment from 3 teeth to 8 teeth from bottom to top gear. The intent is that you climb up a wall loaded with the kitchen sink starting in your 34-32, incrementally go up the granny range (like a modern bike) to the 22 tooth cog, then shift to 48 29 to minimize the chain angle. Then you alternate shifting back and forth to get 12 small 8% close-ratio jumps all the way up to top speed, 70 or whatever rpm in 52-14.
That's the real vintage half-step plus granny, and how to ride it. Keep a pretty constant cadence from the 48-29 all the way up to the 52-14 for a good road-riding range, and granny down to 25" climbing gear when you need it. I
It's based on fairly simple math, and I got all out of "Bicycle Gearing" by Richard Marr, a contemporary of Eugene Sloan. Frank Berto also told us all about this in Bicycling Magazine, in the late '70s and early '80s. I made it into an Excel spreadsheet program, where you can type your wheel diameter, desired top gear, desired rear cog increment, and the granny drop, and then Excel calculates the teeth, the ratios and some figures of merit for the freewheel and the shifting step sizes.
You still have to find or source the freewheel gearing that Excel says you need.
I can share the spreadsheet, but I only have it in raw Excel - I did not make it into something the user does not have to avoid, like Basic.
Algorithm guy, not a coding guy!
#32
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...I made it into an Excel spreadsheet program, where you can type your wheel diameter, desired top gear, desired rear cog increment, and the granny drop, and then Excel calculates the teeth, the ratios and some figures of merit for the freewheel and the shifting step sizes.
I can share the spreadsheet, but I only have it in raw Excel
I can share the spreadsheet, but I only have it in raw Excel
#33
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This is what I am running on my Batavus Randonneur GL:
For loaded touring, assuming all those panniers are full and weigh a total of 20kg... Cyclingabout advises a low gear of around 20-25 gear inches. Which you could reach with a 32/34 large cog rear freewheel.
For loaded touring, assuming all those panniers are full and weigh a total of 20kg... Cyclingabout advises a low gear of around 20-25 gear inches. Which you could reach with a 32/34 large cog rear freewheel.
I'm glad to see that some of the suggested gearings are actually half-steps! 6 or 7 years ago that was not the case around here, or on iBob!
#34
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#35
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@deux jambes;, I concur with previous posters that if you aren’t going the half-step route, more gears are better.
If if you are going to try half-step, a 5-speed with the traditional 14-32 mentioned above is ideal (paired with the proper long cage RD to handle it - a Cyclone GS works fine for me). I have worked out 6 and 7 speed half-steps with other sprocket combos, but none are really better than 14-32/5s. You need a 44t chainring to make it work with your 48t up front, and 86BCD rings aren’t easy to come by. Traditional setups were 50/45/28 - the most evenly spaced steps possible with three bailout gears.
On your hub, you would have to build a custom cassette to make that work, probably buying a couple Sunrace cassettes and disassembling them - most Shimano/SRAM cassettes use spiders for their largest three sprockets so they can’t be mixed.
Additionally (major geek out here) you could run 6 sprockets and still do a 5s half-step, just make the 6th sprocket a 13t and you’ve got one extra high gear (handy with a 48t chainring).
Also, readers must bear in mind that the smallest chainring an 86BCD Stronglight 99 can handle is a 28t. That’s why it works so well with a 14-32 5s half step + granny.
If if you are going to try half-step, a 5-speed with the traditional 14-32 mentioned above is ideal (paired with the proper long cage RD to handle it - a Cyclone GS works fine for me). I have worked out 6 and 7 speed half-steps with other sprocket combos, but none are really better than 14-32/5s. You need a 44t chainring to make it work with your 48t up front, and 86BCD rings aren’t easy to come by. Traditional setups were 50/45/28 - the most evenly spaced steps possible with three bailout gears.
On your hub, you would have to build a custom cassette to make that work, probably buying a couple Sunrace cassettes and disassembling them - most Shimano/SRAM cassettes use spiders for their largest three sprockets so they can’t be mixed.
Additionally (major geek out here) you could run 6 sprockets and still do a 5s half-step, just make the 6th sprocket a 13t and you’ve got one extra high gear (handy with a 48t chainring).
Also, readers must bear in mind that the smallest chainring an 86BCD Stronglight 99 can handle is a 28t. That’s why it works so well with a 14-32 5s half step + granny.
#36
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Nice! Is yours currently built as pictured? Mine is also a 1984. Here’s a shot of the bike as purchased...
And as she sits presently...
Yet to ride a 520 myself, as mine had the bb installed backwards when I bought it. The small chainring was in full contact with the stay. But I have not read or heard one negative criticism for these bikes. I had an ‘84 510 that ride very well, so my expectations for this fram are pretty high.
And as she sits presently...
Yet to ride a 520 myself, as mine had the bb installed backwards when I bought it. The small chainring was in full contact with the stay. But I have not read or heard one negative criticism for these bikes. I had an ‘84 510 that ride very well, so my expectations for this fram are pretty high.
#37
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My 80's SBI Expedition came as a 48, 44, 28 I promptly changed that..
Back then..
..
Back then..
..
Last edited by fietsbob; 11-25-18 at 01:04 PM.
#38
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I’m pleased to see so many responses here, and so much great informative input.
I’m going to reread through all the posts over the next few days, and take notes for further consideration. I’m pretty sure I’ll have some specific questions coming up for a few of the ideas presented in particular.
But until then, thanks so much all of you. This is proving to be an exciting learning experience.
Also, that gear calculator is AMAZING! 😁
I’m going to reread through all the posts over the next few days, and take notes for further consideration. I’m pretty sure I’ll have some specific questions coming up for a few of the ideas presented in particular.
But until then, thanks so much all of you. This is proving to be an exciting learning experience.
Also, that gear calculator is AMAZING! 😁
#39
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Nice! Is yours currently built as pictured? Mine is also a 1984. Here’s a shot of the bike as purchased...
And as she sits presently...
Yet to ride a 520 myself, as mine had the bb installed backwards when I bought it. The small chainring was in full contact with the stay. But I have not read or heard one negative criticism for these bikes. I had an ‘84 510 that ride very well, so my expectations for this fram are pretty high.
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I have one of the 14-34 freewheels. Works great with an 8 speed XT derailleur on a short claw and with a Cyclone GT on a 32 mm claw.
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