Ceramic Bearings or Stick with steel
10-02-12, 11:40 AM
#77
Pokemon Master
Yes we all love riding of course I do about 40 clicks daily. Just wondering. How many times have you rode on ceramic bearings? you seem very sure they are inferior. "A true upgrade". No one in this forum has disputed that a grade 5 ball is a grade five ball regardless of what is made of. As far as i can reason the dispute is not that ceramics arent as good as steel but whether they are significantly noticeably so. And for the price.
10-02-12, 11:51 AM
#78
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yes I am an engineer like I said I have worked among other industries for Rolls Royce on the Concorde RB 211, Tornado RB 199 and the Harrier Pegasus jet engines.
I do not wish to get personal or argue pad-antics or silly engineering theories you believe you know.
But if you are going to propose something it might be an idea to first look as others have at the rotating speeds a bike runs at.
1 Yes a harder surface will ware a softer one but if the coeficient of friction is reduced by the superior hard surface shouldnt this equal less ware. Especially when the actual medium touching both surfaces is the grease.Also please consider the advantages because there is no attraction of the molecules between steel and ceramic.
Oh yeh sorry I was too lazy to use spell check. After using Swedish for the last 15 years you tend to drop a vowel or two now and again.
I do not wish to get personal or argue pad-antics or silly engineering theories you believe you know.
But if you are going to propose something it might be an idea to first look as others have at the rotating speeds a bike runs at.
1 Yes a harder surface will ware a softer one but if the coeficient of friction is reduced by the superior hard surface shouldnt this equal less ware. Especially when the actual medium touching both surfaces is the grease.Also please consider the advantages because there is no attraction of the molecules between steel and ceramic.
Oh yeh sorry I was too lazy to use spell check. After using Swedish for the last 15 years you tend to drop a vowel or two now and again.
10-02-12, 12:03 PM
#80
Pokemon Master
yeh thats my bias i started using them because I commute 40klms everyday and in the winter it is a little hard in Sweden -20 degrees on a good day. I am so in love with the result that I decided to buy them bulk combine them with SKF brand lithium soap and sell them at a price everyone can afford.
You can also find some tips on carbon fiber on my site if your interested because I think that is the only way to travel also. And if i can get some quality frames from Tiawan cheap I will also pass on the savings there.
And i am experimenting on Bamboo as an ecological alternative building material.
I hope its not a crime. I do have a bias but I also have knowledge about the subject and have worked in engineering for nearly 40years.
You can also find some tips on carbon fiber on my site if your interested because I think that is the only way to travel also. And if i can get some quality frames from Tiawan cheap I will also pass on the savings there.
And i am experimenting on Bamboo as an ecological alternative building material.
I hope its not a crime. I do have a bias but I also have knowledge about the subject and have worked in engineering for nearly 40years.
yes I am an engineer like I said I have worked among other industries for Rolls Royce on the Concorde RB 211, Tornado RB 199 and the Harrier Pegasus jet engines.
I do not wish to get personal or argue pad-antics or silly engineering theories you believe you know.
But if you are going to propose something it might be an idea to first look as others have at the rotating speeds a bike runs at.
1 Yes a harder surface will ware a softer one but if the coeficient of friction is reduced by the superior hard surface shouldnt this equal less ware. Especially when the actual medium touching both surfaces is the grease.Also please consider the advantages because there is no attraction of the molecules between steel and ceramic.
Oh yeh sorry I was too lazy to use spell check. After using Swedish for the last 15 years you tend to drop a vowel or two now and again.
I do not wish to get personal or argue pad-antics or silly engineering theories you believe you know.
But if you are going to propose something it might be an idea to first look as others have at the rotating speeds a bike runs at.
1 Yes a harder surface will ware a softer one but if the coeficient of friction is reduced by the superior hard surface shouldnt this equal less ware. Especially when the actual medium touching both surfaces is the grease.Also please consider the advantages because there is no attraction of the molecules between steel and ceramic.
Oh yeh sorry I was too lazy to use spell check. After using Swedish for the last 15 years you tend to drop a vowel or two now and again.
10-02-12, 12:17 PM
#81
Sir Fallalot
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What you are is a salesman. The kind of speech you use, the kind of BS you try to sell, is all typical of salespeople. As others have remarked already, you do not have a firm grasp on engineering, and it's pointless that you continue peddling the lie that you worked in the aerospace industry as an engineer.
Please stop. It is starting to be embarrassing.
10-02-12, 01:46 PM
#82
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I've already posted the opinion of someone well recognized in the bicycling industry but aerospace keeps coming up.
OK - so lets consider what the aerospace industry thinks about bearings of all types:
Source: Dr. Christopher DellaCorte, NASA Glenn Research Center, "Corrosion-immune, shockproof bearings" published in ASM, August 31, 2012
Source: NASA TN D-3101 "BEARING LIFE AND FAILURE DISTRIBUTION AS AFFECTED BY ACTUAL COMPONENT DIFFERENTIAL HARDNESS", Erwin V. Zaretsky, Richard J. Parker, William J. Anderson, and David W. Reichard; November 1965
To quickly summarize the findings in that last document - a differential of 2 or more points in Rockwell C Hardness (bearings / race or race / bearings) consistently resulted in a reduced bearing life of 30 to 40%. Ceramic bearings weren't tested in that document, but sticking them in any conventional bearing race would give a differential of over 10 points on the Rockwell scale.
Ceramic bearings work fine in high stiffness, high load, high-speed bearings and for applications that include high temperature or corrosive conditions like bearings for gas turbine hot sections where the motion is uniform and purely rotational. And fully ceramic bearings are best suited for most of those applications. Personally I like high tech stuff in bicycles - but not when it actually increases maintenaince requirements with no measurable performance gains.
OK - so lets consider what the aerospace industry thinks about bearings of all types:
Many aerospace bearing and mechanism failures can be traced back to the intrinsic inadequacy of currently available materials. Conventional hardened bearing steels are prone to corrosion. Bearings made from corrosion resistant alloys and plastics are relatively soft and prone to wear. Hybrid ceramic ball-steel raced bearings are susceptible to denting by the much harder ceramic balls.
The bearings exhibited a maximum life for a deltaH of approximately 1 to 2 points with increasing deltaH until a minimum value was obtained at a value of deltaH of approximately 2 points Rockwell C.
To quickly summarize the findings in that last document - a differential of 2 or more points in Rockwell C Hardness (bearings / race or race / bearings) consistently resulted in a reduced bearing life of 30 to 40%. Ceramic bearings weren't tested in that document, but sticking them in any conventional bearing race would give a differential of over 10 points on the Rockwell scale.
Ceramic bearings work fine in high stiffness, high load, high-speed bearings and for applications that include high temperature or corrosive conditions like bearings for gas turbine hot sections where the motion is uniform and purely rotational. And fully ceramic bearings are best suited for most of those applications. Personally I like high tech stuff in bicycles - but not when it actually increases maintenaince requirements with no measurable performance gains.
Last edited by Burton; 10-02-12 at 02:15 PM.
10-02-12, 03:51 PM
#83
Mechanic/Tourist
yes I am an engineer like I said I have worked among other industries for Rolls Royce on the Concorde RB 211, Tornado RB 199 and the Harrier Pegasus jet engines.
I do not wish to get personal or argue pad-antics or silly engineering theories you believe you know.
But if you are going to propose something it might be an idea to first look as others have at the rotating speeds a bike runs at.
1 Yes a harder surface will ware a softer one but if the coeficient of friction is reduced by the superior hard surface shouldnt this equal less ware. Especially when the actual medium touching both surfaces is the grease. Also please consider the advantages because there is no attraction of the molecules between steel and ceramic.
Oh yeh sorry I was too lazy to use spell check. After using Swedish for the last 15 years you tend to drop a vowel or two now and again.
I do not wish to get personal or argue pad-antics or silly engineering theories you believe you know.
But if you are going to propose something it might be an idea to first look as others have at the rotating speeds a bike runs at.
1 Yes a harder surface will ware a softer one but if the coeficient of friction is reduced by the superior hard surface shouldnt this equal less ware. Especially when the actual medium touching both surfaces is the grease. Also please consider the advantages because there is no attraction of the molecules between steel and ceramic.
Oh yeh sorry I was too lazy to use spell check. After using Swedish for the last 15 years you tend to drop a vowel or two now and again.
10-02-12, 04:26 PM
#84
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Wait, what?
If you're referring to the fact that aluminium allegedly causes alzheimer's disease (to use the correct spelling), thanks for your concern but I'm not worried.
10-02-12, 10:18 PM
#85
dragon
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its starting to be embarrassing???
This is the quote that most clearly shows that you are not an engineer. You don't have the faintest understanding of proportions. You saw smokestacks and didn't even consider how much steel the smelters were producing.
What you are is a salesman. The kind of speech you use, the kind of BS you try to sell, is all typical of salespeople. As others have remarked already, you do not have a firm grasp on engineering, and it's pointless that you continue peddling the lie that you worked in the aerospace industry as an engineer.
"Please stop. It is starting to be embarrassing".
What you are is a salesman. The kind of speech you use, the kind of BS you try to sell, is all typical of salespeople. As others have remarked already, you do not have a firm grasp on engineering, and it's pointless that you continue peddling the lie that you worked in the aerospace industry as an engineer.
"Please stop. It is starting to be embarrassing".
And yes I know the difference between steam coming out of those stacks at the local steel works and the stench of Sulphar. Or the cancerous effects of chromium which is typically used in stainless steel production. As I have already said the mountain adjacent was dead and black.
I have worked for Rolls Royce Aeronautics, Glouscester road Patchway, Bristol England not that it is relevant to whether a ceramic bearing is good or not and take offense at your constant ignorant rantings and deliberate misinformation.
I am no salesman but you DEFINATELY work for someone who has a vested interest in keeping everyone in the dark.
IF YOU ARE AN ENGINEER OR RELATED FIELD YOU WORK FOR THE BAD GUYS. So please dont embarrass yourself.
10-02-12, 10:24 PM
#87
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To be fair, I work with plenty of bright, capable engineers with horrible spelling and careless typing (when in conversation). That said, attention to those things would make our Swede's job a little easier. Still not convinced enough to give up my steel bearings, though.
10-02-12, 11:42 PM
#89
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Guys I dont know about you but I think we all have pretty set Ideas concerning steel against ceramic, but would any of you be of the same opinion as me.That given the bearing surfaces are all relatively at a high performance level. The membrane between them (i mean lubrication) is of equal importance if not more important in reducing friction.
Can the guy who was discussing teflon powder please tell us more. I for one think he might be on to something and am extremely interested in hearing what he had to say.
Can the guy who was discussing teflon powder please tell us more. I for one think he might be on to something and am extremely interested in hearing what he had to say.
10-03-12, 02:15 AM
#90
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10-04-12, 05:33 AM
#92
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The problem is really simple. You can't just dump ceramic balls in a conventional bearing and call it a hybrid. Insisting on doing that will, quite simply, shorten the expected bearing life by about 30% regardless of how round or how smooth those little guys are. True hybrid ceramic bearings are designed with different contact angles because the bearing loads differently as a result of the ceramics having different properties.
So check it out - otherwise you'll just end up being one of the 'bad guys' yourself.
Last edited by Burton; 10-04-12 at 05:38 AM.
01-31-15, 07:19 PM
#93
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A good steel bearing made from 52100 is made to withstand 200,000 PSI an temps up to 300F with a Rockwell harness of 64+depending on heat treat!
These will out last most bearing cups.
The problem is cheap low carbon 1018 and other low grade Chinese stuff you find in most bike shops.
Ceramic bearings start to come into play at very high temps steelREX20 bearings can take,over 600F.
These Bearings are mostly made of Tungsten steel.
Ceramic Bearings can take up to 1500F Example (Si3N4)
The real question is less one about the bearing itself but the lubricant used with them.
I don't like having to disassemble a bike to re grease every 3 to 4 months as most bicycle greases require to protect the moving parts from ware.
Car wheel bearing grease is just to thick and not made for the speed and heat range of a bicycle no matter how strong you think your legs are.
The grease I find works best has been pretty hard to find and must be purchased in large amounts.I use Chevron Ultra Duty Industrial- EXTENDED SERVICE red grease NLGI 2 and (G25) 52100 balls.
I grease once a year and it dose not migrate. It dose a great job.And the bearings show no ware when put in a dial caliper.
BTW a pound of tire pressure,a heavy meal or an open flannel shirt will have more impact on speed than what bearings you choose.
Having given my opinion, If ceramic bearings make you feel better about your bike,give you confidence and you have lots of extra$$$$ to spend. WHY THE HECK NOT?
It's your bike!
Bearings and grease actually create very little drag unless your doing something way outside the norm.
Keeping everything lubed and turning freely is priority #1 .
A good read on ball bearings. Ball Material Selection
A good read on grease The best (bicycle) grease ever?: Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums
These will out last most bearing cups.
The problem is cheap low carbon 1018 and other low grade Chinese stuff you find in most bike shops.
Ceramic bearings start to come into play at very high temps steelREX20 bearings can take,over 600F.
These Bearings are mostly made of Tungsten steel.
Ceramic Bearings can take up to 1500F Example (Si3N4)
The real question is less one about the bearing itself but the lubricant used with them.
I don't like having to disassemble a bike to re grease every 3 to 4 months as most bicycle greases require to protect the moving parts from ware.
Car wheel bearing grease is just to thick and not made for the speed and heat range of a bicycle no matter how strong you think your legs are.
The grease I find works best has been pretty hard to find and must be purchased in large amounts.I use Chevron Ultra Duty Industrial- EXTENDED SERVICE red grease NLGI 2 and (G25) 52100 balls.
I grease once a year and it dose not migrate. It dose a great job.And the bearings show no ware when put in a dial caliper.
BTW a pound of tire pressure,a heavy meal or an open flannel shirt will have more impact on speed than what bearings you choose.
Having given my opinion, If ceramic bearings make you feel better about your bike,give you confidence and you have lots of extra$$$$ to spend. WHY THE HECK NOT?
It's your bike!
Bearings and grease actually create very little drag unless your doing something way outside the norm.
Keeping everything lubed and turning freely is priority #1 .
A good read on ball bearings. Ball Material Selection
A good read on grease The best (bicycle) grease ever?: Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums
Last edited by goraman; 01-31-15 at 10:56 PM. Reason: more to add
01-31-15, 10:57 PM
#94
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Are zombies steel or ceramic ?
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01-31-15, 11:23 PM
#95
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01-31-15, 11:24 PM
#96
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.
...but not very much.
...but not very much.
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02-01-15, 12:21 AM
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This looks cool, but would it make a lot of difference once packed in grease?
If you took 2 identical bikes one with bearings of good quality and one with these,the rider would not be able to tell the difference.
https://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit7722?
The quality is awesome, and they are cool to look at.
I may put them on a very high end bike just for bragging rights though.
If you took 2 identical bikes one with bearings of good quality and one with these,the rider would not be able to tell the difference.
https://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit7722?
The quality is awesome, and they are cool to look at.
I may put them on a very high end bike just for bragging rights though.
Last edited by goraman; 02-01-15 at 12:28 AM.
02-01-15, 09:05 AM
#98
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This looks cool, but would it make a lot of difference once packed in grease?
If you took 2 identical bikes one with bearings of good quality and one with these,the rider would not be able to tell the difference.
6201 Full Ceramic Bearing 12x32x10 Si3N4/PTFE Ball Bearings CeramicBallBearings
The quality is awesome, and they are cool to look at.
I may put them on a very high end bike just for bragging rights though.
If you took 2 identical bikes one with bearings of good quality and one with these,the rider would not be able to tell the difference.
6201 Full Ceramic Bearing 12x32x10 Si3N4/PTFE Ball Bearings CeramicBallBearings
The quality is awesome, and they are cool to look at.
I may put them on a very high end bike just for bragging rights though.
If I'm on a ride, and someone tells me he has ceramic bearings, I am likely to think less of him, not more.
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02-01-15, 09:24 AM
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02-01-15, 12:40 PM
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I really don't care one way or the other what people ride, If you saw my bike you would not be impressed it's a 40 year old Raleigh Sprite 3 speed but it has been well cared for and it suits my need for a bike.
When my son gets older I will most likely build him something state of the art and very cool.