gregf83 

I think your description is consistent with 'pretty flat'. There is a generally accepted model from Monod and Scherrer which indicates that maximum power for a given duration is P = CP + AWC/t where CP is critical power or the power one can maintain indefinitely and AWC is anaerobic work capacity. AWC is essentially the 'extra' energy you can dole out quickly during a sprint or more slower over the course of an interval.

For example, a TT specialist might have an AWC of 15kJ and a CP of 300W. For a 20min interval the maximum power would be 300 + 15000/(20*60) = 312.5W. Similarly the power for a 50 and 70 min interval would be 305 and 303.6 respectively or 'pretty flat'. If a rider doesn't ride with uniform power the curve can be even flatter.

Heathpack 

This concept is the exact reason that I asked here on BF recently- If you want to only do TTs, is it counterproductive to have a sprint? This was in the context of someone who was interested in solo endurance events on flattish terrain and he wanted to work on his sprint and people were telling him how to do about doing it. The question becomes- is the fastest way around a flat course a TT-type effort and if it is, is a sprint counter-productive because it will just decrease the total duration of time you can hold power? Lol, people had no idea what I was getting at. Why the F would you not want a sprint??! You can have a sprint and not use it! Stupid question!

Never mind...

gregf83 

There's an old adage that 'sprinters are born not made'. Sprinters have a higher % of fast twitch muscle fibers which work well for sprinting but are not as efficient for longer TT type efforts.

If you enjoy TTs it doesn't really matter as you can always enter a TT and work on improving your times. Not so great if you want to be a sprinter but don't have the genes as you will never be competitive and there are no solo sprint events except perhaps on the track.

Heathpack 

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregf83

There's an old adage that 'sprinters are born not made'. Sprinters have a higher % of fast twitch muscle fibers which work well for sprinting but are not as efficient for longer TT type efforts.

If you enjoy TTs it doesn't really matter as you can always enter a TT and work on improving your times. Not so great if you want to be a sprinter but don't have the genes as you will never be competitive and there are no solo sprint events except perhaps on the track.

But my question actually is: is it detrimental to improve short-duration power for someone who is only interested in holding power for long durations- like 1-4 hours?

The BF post that made me think about this was one in which the poster had noticed he had good power-to-weight at 20 & 60 min, but poor power output for shorter duration efforts. He wanted to become a more "complete" cyclist, so asked how to improve his sprint. He got answers about how he could improve his power on short efforts, up to 5 min. But he is a guy who rides long distances (like 100 mi), solo, on flattish terrain.

So I didn't see why he needed to improve those short duration efforts at all, it seemed like a waste of training time to me. But I also wondered if it wouldn't actually be counter-productive to work on these short-duration powers, because the more spiky his power is the more it degrades his ability to hold power for hours.


No one really seemed to see the point I was making. So now that I have your attention, what is your opinion?

gregf83 

Those sound like conflicting statements.

A rider like Cancellara is a TT specialist and not competitive with true sprinters. However, because he has very high long term power he often finds himself in a break with a few other riders in which case having a decent sprint, even if it's not world class, can be helpful.

Like I said earlier, it's virtually impossible to convert a non-sprinter into a sprinter but anyone can improve their sprint and short term power. The nice thing about sprinting and short term power is that it generally responds quickly to training. A short block of work on high intensity efforts before an important race can improve short term power without degrading long term power. It's not something you'd want to do all the time but it can play a role with the right timing. Besides sprinting is fun

Heathpack 

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregf83

Those sound like conflicting statements.

A rider like Cancellara is a TT specialist and not competitive with true sprinters. However, because he has very high long term power he often finds himself in a break with a few other riders in which case having a decent sprint, even if it's not world class, can be helpful.

Like I said earlier, it's virtually impossible to convert a non-sprinter into a sprinter but anyone can improve their sprint and short term power. The nice thing about sprinting and short term power is that it generally responds quickly to training. A short block of work on high intensity efforts before an important race can improve short term power without degrading long term power. It's not something you'd want to do all the time but it can play a role with the right timing. Besides sprinting is fun

Ok, I don't really know, which is why I asked. Correct on the conflicting statements IMO. I think it was a case of just wanting to be "complete" because that sounds better. While not realizing that by remaining "incomplete" he might be a better specialist, which is really all that particular guy needs to be, if he just wants to ride that one type of long solo flat endurance ride.

I guess my observation has been that sprinty types I know who do TTs are always talking about how much they suffer in them and I was wondering if they were just incapable of *not* producing bursts of power with little undulations in the road and therefore were spending too much time early-on above threshold, causing excessive fatigue. It just seems like sometimes people try to power through a TT effort, rather than finesse it.

I'm not saying that I find a TT effort easy by any means. But I do actually look forward to them, to seeing how well I can coax every little watt out of myself for the longest possible time. I do focus my training on TTs though, so maybe it's just practicing them a lot or being better able to deal with lactic acid on account of training so much at and slightly above threshold, I therefore don't hate them. Or maybe it's just my personality. But I have zero sprint so I was wondering if really that just helps keep everything very even for me in TTs and makes me like them more than most people do. I've been trying out the track and may start training power in some shorter-duration efforts once I finish my TT season in June. I don't want it to hurt the TT training, though. Coach says it won't but then again, he's a cycling enabler.

AFrizzledFry

Overall it looks like you've been given some pretty decent advice here, but I'll chime in for whatever it's worth.

I agree that you're probably eating too much on the bike. Sounds like a good bit more than 200 kcal/hour to me (bar, Skratch, gel per hour). More like 400-500. That is too much. You're not doing 10+hr Ironman races. For reference, I'm 149 lbs and roughly at 4w/kg racing Cat 2 cyclocross. I rarely eat on training rides under 3 hours (unless it's a kitchen sink workout, during which I'll do maybe a gel). Did a 50 mile mountain bike race (my first) on Saturday in 4:18. I ate a Honey Shot every 45 minutes (100 kcal). 500 calories total. I disagree that you need to drop the Zone 3 stuff. Tempo work increases muscular glycogen storage per Coggan, meaning you'll need to eat less while riding. See below.

Power Training Zones for Cycling | TrainingPeaks

Seems to me, you simply need to ride more (meaning Zone 2 or aerobic work) to improve your overall fitness, and eat less while doing so to actually lose weight. Working up to 150 miles per week is probably a good goal, though I have no reference for how much that is. I'm a time guy. I'm guessing you're riding 5-6 hours a week. Bump that slowly to 8-10 hours a week (rule of 10%). After about 3 months, I'll bet you'll have seen some serious gains in terms of w/kg, and just overall fitness/how you feel on longer rides.

Hope this helps.

Pakiwi

Rode a century yesterday and at the 3 hour window I hit the same thing. Rode a good pace the first 50 miles then power just fell off. Rode very slowly to the next stop, went to the bathroom and my hydration is off. I consumed 2 bottles took 10 minutes and then hopped on the bike and I was back to normal performance. Felt strong. So my issue is hydration related which has become more pronounced as I am riding significantly harder than last year. I had been drinking the 1 bottle an hour when riding but obviously that is just not enough. I also need to be much smarter about stopping and hydrating. I was with a group towards the end of the ride and skipped one rest stop which left me short at the end. My eating was more normal with something every hour and a banana and snack at a rest stop. Looking forward to next week when I'm hitting a 100 mile 9500 feet and going to make sure I am well hydrated and my bottles are always filled.

Carbonfiberboy 

For hydration, I go by peeing. If I don't pee every 2-3 hours, I'm low and need to correct that. The other thing to think about is that one can drink to thirst. If thirst is insufficient, then one becomes dehydrated. The way to fix that is to take sufficient Endurolytes that one is sufficiently thirsty and drinks enough water to perform the peeing test. The nice thing about this is that it is then impossible to get hyponatremic, i.e. to have one's electrolyte balance get too low. If I get to a rest stop where I know I should pee and can't or it's too dark, I stay there and drink enough water until I can pee.

My usual tell for being dehydrated on the bike is that my HR goes up for a given effort and I don't have moisture on my forearms any more.

Pakiwi

Well my big ride was yesterday. 100 miles, 9300 feet of climbing and I finished the 100 miles. I kept drinking and actually went to the bathroom more than I usually did. So I am guessing the issue was related to hydration and electrolytes.
Just have to work on getting stronger, but happy I finished. It was a long day and a tough climb.
Thanks for everybody's feedback.