staehpj1

Thanks for the clarification.

Maybe, but I doubt we can come up with criteria that we all agree with. Also it is possible to go UL with panniers and heavy with alternate baggage systems. So any criteria will probably have exceptions or at least folks that won't agree with it.

saddlesores

hmm...could be due to lack of comfort? can only handle "roughing it" so long?

overanalyzing. cycle touring, not rockette science. try to relax a little.

350htrr

There, that is the difference between UL & carrying more. Some, even dare I say it, most, people seem to rather "suffer" a bit more during the day while riding and carrying more, than "suffer" during the evening because they didn't carry enough... That I believe is the sticking point, and also everyone has a different level of where they think "suffering" starts...

staehpj1

I just have no interest in touring being my whole life. I have a home, a family, a dog, and other interests. Even a couple months is a long break from all of that. Some folks want to live on the road full time. That is fine for them, it just doesn't interest me.

Different strokes, I enjoy tweaking the gear list when not actually touring.

Squeezebox

So write a letter to the USA embasy of said country before hand and maybe they can run some interference for you. My brother-in-law in Uganda would do it for you.

Squeezebox

Seriously if you are going to do central Africa I'll send your info to him.

DropBarFan

Interesting since during this thread I thought about the supply-shipping idea (which isn't new of course). Can be hassles with that but for a longer UL tour it might be a consideration. Mike Hall post was interesting, he endorses carbon & also uses disc brakes, tech that old-school tourers argued against. I wonder how much of this thread would be obviated by availability of moderately-priced carbon touring frames. CF racing frames avail for $600, why not a full-kit CF touring frame for $2-2.5K? CF racks would save even more weight. OTOH I'd guess much of the speed gains in UL touring is aero reduction since panniers have considerable add'l front area.

saddlesores

even less! can pick up cf frames online in chinaland for under $250.

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm...id=39225475471

or $375 including the fork+seatpost (although brand translates as "breaking wind")

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm...id=35774379423


NOW.....if someone would make a full-carbon BOB trailer
with 12-kevlar-spoke wheel, at around 6 ounces total, we
could all tour with the kitchen sink and still be ultralight.

Happy Feet

Well, I certainly wouldn't argue against that.

Finding what makes it fun is important for everyone. That being said, "fun" can be defined many different ways. Some people like to cook so they bring a more complete kitchen, others like to play an instrument. Some people like a pillow or warm woolen socks at night. I like to read but none of my authors come on a kindle list so I need to bring a real book. I also enjoy a sense of self sufficiency and pack what I think I need to reasonably practice this, even though it might add a coupe of pounds. I also like photography and videography - one camera of each kind for me please. We pack differently yet we both enjoy what we do.

Squeezebox

Sure bring a few extra lbs if it makes you happy. Just don't bring an extra 60 lbs. and make yourself miserable.

imi

Like this guy? He looks miserable...

elcruxio

How is 60lbs going to make me miserable? That's 27kg. It's nothing. I took as much stuff on my very first week long hike when I was 14 years old and can't really remember it weighing me down at all. I even took 1kg or so in rocks with me because they were so cool (now I know better, don't collect rocks, since if everyone was doing it, it would be catastrophic) On a bike 27kg is a very small amount of weight, if you compare it towards the whole system.

Now hauling a full military pack (50kg or 110lbs) for 50 miles was something different. That was starting to get heavy at the end of the march.

Honestly, if 27kg is going to make you miserable you might want to look towards further conditioning. More weight is going to make you slower on the uphills, not miserable, at least if your gearing can handle the elevation gain.

staehpj1

In the US and probably all first world countries, mailing stuff ahead definitely works OK. I have been more inclined to mail things to and from home, but all my tours have been in the US. I used to use the USPS a lot to adjust what I was carrying, but as my load got lighter and more dialed in I have not found as much reason to do so.

staehpj1

Squeezebox said 60 extra pounds. How significant that is will depend on how much you are already carrying among other factors. I have met a fair number of riders who were very miserable because of the extra weight they carried and said so. Some mailed stuff home, some just suffered, and some gave up, hopped on a bus, and abandoned their tour probably never touring again.

I also met a fair number of very heavily loaded tourists who were doing fine and were quite happy with their gear choices, but I don't think that many of them considered any of what they were carrying to be extra.

imi

In europe the Poste Restante system works pretty well. Problems arise if you have a name where your first name can be confused as being a surname, thus landing your delivery in the wrong inbox.

If a town or city has multiple post offices, one of them is usually designated as the poste-restante office, and it's not always the one you'd expect.

My only real problem was in Italy :shocked:
There again, things that are organised and work in Italy are often made illegal!

andrewclaus

All that analysis led to a helpful article, "Less Encumbered Touring," on CGOAB. I'm glad some people think about this stuff more than I do.

(I am intrigued by the concept of rockette science.)

nun

I used USPS "General Delivery" to post maps to myself at a couple of places along the Northern Tier. It was simple and efficient and I never had to carry more than a couple of maps for the entire crossing.

nun

He was carrying mountaineering equipment too so maybe not the best example.

imi

Why not? He was bicycling with a heavy load.

I'm pretty sure though his was the most streamlined gear for his tour and everything he wanted to do on it. Every ounce and cubic inch planned in the minutest of detail.

If it's the weight that makes you miserable it makes zip all difference what that weight is to be used, or not used, for.

mdilthey

Wasn't this guy climbing Everest or something on this trip? Maybe not the best example... considering what he accomplished, this is ultralight.

elcruxio

Even if we consider that 60lbs to be extra added on top of the much advocated 20lbs ghost limit, it's still only 80lbs in gear, which is still hikeable (though, not pleasant anymore) and still not nearly as a big deal on a bike. A Tubus Cargo rack can take 80lbs and that's just the rear rack. I think it has been shown in this thread enough, that weight on the bike doesn't matter nearly as much as if you're carrying it on your back while walking. I'd say a bike can comfortably take 3 times the weight one can hike with. Not that it's often necessary to load the bike up that much, but it's possible and not at all a problem.
Sure, you'll be slower up the hills but that's only an issue if you let it be an issue.

I'll use another fun military anecdote. Many of our conscripts complete a bicycle march with the traditional Jaeger bicycles our military still employs. We're talking about a 40lbs single speed steel monstrosity with roadster geometry and worn components (when I was finding one for myself from storage, many of said bikes were totalled with snapped frames, destroyed wheels etc).
The march in question is a metric century so 100km. The gear is generally full pack so 110lbs. The base I'm most familiar with is extremely hilly terrain with dirt roads. And people still manage the march. In fact, it's considered to be among the easiest marches in the military since you can use a bicycle. Even the weakest slobs manage it, when they would struggle to complete half of the distance on foot.
So
100km in distance
150lbs in bike/gear
hilly dirt roads on a clunky worn down single speed
And people manage it just fine.

Would I tour like that? Of course not. But the idea of 80lbs being too heavy when using a well maintained geared bike mainly on asphalt is, to me, ridiculous.

As a disclaimer, I still have no idea about my gear weight, not really all that interested, I need 4 panniers and rack bag since medical supplies are so bulky, even though they they weigh next to nothing.
And I like comfort so a proper field kitchen is required. It's hard making anything complex with a can burner.

imi

Yes. It's Göran Kropp who cycled from Stockholm to Everest, climbed it without oxygene or Sherpas, then cycled back again.

I agree that he is probably carrying the lightest possible load to accomplish his tour with the level of comfort he chose.

If that is a definition of "Ultralight", then EVERYBODY is touring ultralight, even if they have six panniers or absolutely nothing and are living off the land...

This obviously makes the use of terms such as "Ultralight", "Heavy" or whatever, absolutely meaningless... and I hereby propose we strike them from ALL future discussions on BF!

bmike

UL and L are a method and mindset. It has very little to do with the total weight, specific gear, whether you carry a UL membership card or not. In the end the mindset gets you to a lighter pack and kit weight, smarter choices, adaptable gears, etc. etc.

Imagine for a minute that the Everest route was put on by Adventure Cycling. Now imagine 1000s of tourists doing that route each year. How light do you think most of them would pack?
I would bet that he is on the lightest of the light side for the said journey... most other folks on that journey would be taking double that much gear, and oxygen, and maybe hire some sherpas.
Again - take your route, time of year(s), terrain, etc. and goals for the trip into account. Then pick your gear accordingly. You go into UL territory if you break into low weights, streamlined gear choices based on the average load for a given trip...

(And I'm not saying he was UL... but I bet compared to others who might try that trip, I bet he would be....)

Same goes for a winter trip. UL Summer does NOT equal UL Winter.
Just like touring from inn to inn in Europe is very different that riding from Mexico to Patagonia.

imi

bmike: I can agree with this as well. My original posting of the picture of Göran Kropp was in response to a poster saying "Just don't pack an extra 60 lbs and be miserable", without all the qualifications in your post above.

He is in one respect travelling ultralight, but in another, heavily loaded.
That he has a bit of extra gear for a side trip on his tour is both the point, and beside the point.

saddlesores

another miserable cyclist.

[photo taken 10 months before the poor sap finally gave up and went home.]