ridethecliche

Heavens, no.
I'm too pretty to be a neurologist.


I'm a resident and ties tend to be seen as a choking hazard in my brain field!

rm -rf

My single sided 4iiii crank failed this summer. It was 3 years and 4 months old, just out of warranty. I assumed either Clever Training where I bought it or 4iiii would cut me a break, with a discounted replacement. Nope.
With covid slowdowns, it took 30 days for them to tell me. Each one just kept referring me to the other party, kind of implying they would help me out. Grrrr. I'm very disappointed with their customer service. Just tell me, don't leave me hanging.

For my needs, a single sided crank meter is fine, for:
Pacing while riding -- a power meter is extremely helpful to me on climbs that I'm trying to do as fast as possible, and other general pacing while riding.
I also look at the ride statistics afterward, and it's interesting to check the season's trends with Golden Cheetah.
I haven't gotten around to replacing it, since my riding this year has been at more of an easier pace. I want to get the single sided Stages this time.

rubiksoval

Bummer.
3 year warranty is pretty good! I've never had a power meter with a warranty over 2 years (and I'm on my 6th at this point).

I know my pos Garmin only had a 1 year warranty when it straight died at 1 year, 1 month! ugh.

Metallifan33

Since this thread got revisited, I thought I'd share a couple of things.
FWIW, I did end up getting the P2M NG based on recommendations from this thread and I gotta say, it's great. No issues and it is consistent (and from what I can tell) accurate. I've used Garmin V3, Assioma Duo's, and a Tacx Neo 2T AFA PMs go.

In regards to single side vs. dual side (and vs. total power), I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents (with the understanding that I've only been at this for a year). For some reason, I seem to have an unnatural (and probably unhealthy) obsession with PMs. I do pay an ear to when RChung speaks up and watch way too many YouTube reviews.
With that in mind, the reason I've pursued a PM that works for me is more for injury prevention than performance (although I'd like to improve performance, injury prevention is the priority right now). Specifically overuse injury (in my case, it's my right knee).
I think sometimes when comparing SS vs. DS PMs, we neglect the accuracy of the total power reading (sometimes this doesn't matter and other times it does).
As an example, when I first got my V3 duos, I noticed that I had a L/R imbalance of 5%. In this case, you take the 5% on a single side and double it and you get a difference of 10%.
Acknowledging the fact that PMs manufacturers strive for a 1 to 2% accuracy level, this might be significant depending on your use case (especially if your FTP was tested on something like a Tacx where it is the total #).

The was some discussion regarding what you can/should even do when there is an imbalance. I agree with most of you that if nothing is wrong, nothing needs to be done.
In my case, after dealing with some pretty severe knee problems, I went back to the bike fitter. The seat pressure analysis showed that I was putting more weight on one side. A couple of changes later (knee tracking change being one of them), the L/R imbalance was reduced to 1 to 2% (a "normal" range). This took some effort on my end to maintain the new form initially, and I could gauge my effort based on my L/R imbalance reading at the end of a ride. This did help my knee and I was able to continue cycling. It must be noted that I also incorporated some physical therapy to help flexibility and muscle imbalances. I used TSS to manage the overtraining. I'm nowhere near what I'd like to be in terms of mileage and FTP, but at least I can still ride.

In regards to Platform Center Offset readings, I also found these to be useful in tracking my knee action. Prior to the form changes, my PCO was + 3 to 6 mm (the number is not important; but it can and does show changes). In this case my knee was tracking out.






Initially it took a very conscious effort to change the knee action to where it tracks inside (past center). But I could gauge my efforts by watching the PCO.




Again, the number is not important as compared to the difference. My knee does a lot better when I put pressure on the inside. It's just that as I get tired and stop paying attention, it can drift back.
Anyway, I'm not really trying to argue with anyone; I just wanted to share my experiences.

Bah Humbug

No that's really cool, thanks for sharing! Maybe I'll give P2M a try next. That's the full-fat NG, not the eco?

Metallifan33

Yeah... it's the NG and not the NG Eco... but I gotta say, the NG ECO is probably good for 95% of what most people would need.
The other thing about P2M I noticed is their customer communication was pretty good. I emailed them a couple of times with questions and they got right back to me.

WhyFi

Not a big difference between NG and NGEco - 1% vs 2%, rechargeable vs coin cell battery, and a few grams. You do have to pay extra for L/R balance and smoothness with the Eco, though, $50 per, IIRC. That's kind of cheesy, but I've never really felt the need or desire to upgrade mine for either of those metrics.

Metallifan33

Personally, I'd prefer a replaceable battery like in the NGEco. Rechargeable batteries like in the NG (and Assiomas) will degrade after a couple of years.
It seems like PM technology development has stalled in the last couple of years and maybe there just isn't much they can improve on (except cost). In this case, I'd prefer a replaceable battery as it will theoretically prolong the life of the device (and plugging it in is just awkward)

WhyFi

The battery lasts a long time in the Eco, too. I think that it usually lasts a little more than a year for me.

Bah Humbug

Even before then I'd argue the only improvements other than price were usability:

wired -> proprietary wireless -> ant/ bluetooth
send back for battery replacement -> replaceable/ recharchable

Now they behave like other consumer electronics and are offered by a variety of manufacturers. They're a commodity (and being included in groupsets, at least as an option) and I wouldn't expect further meaningful innovation until something completely changes the landscape.

Trsnrtr

I’ve got an original P2Max that eats batteries and they are those weird Renata 2450cn batteries that are hard to find.

MoAlpha

You can't use regular supermarket 2450s?

MoAlpha

In-line muscle implants with strain gauges and microdialysis ports. Pre-order today!

himespau 

Optional drill/driver attachment point for when the climb gets too tough.

Trsnrtr

Not really. Renatas are slightly thicker. I think it's only the original that used this goofy battery.

It's irrelevant, anyway. It eats batteries so bad that no one could afford to use it.

sfrider 

That's exactly what I use a single sided Stages for. It can be hard to tell how hard I'm working, especially when my legs are fresh on that first climb. 250W, 350W it all feels the same and I'd rather not wait for fatigue to set in to find out, that's pretty wasteful. For common rides though gear and cadence is a pretty good tool, but it's very easy to just sit in excessively low gears as well.

msu2001la

I picked up a refurbished single sided Stages crank arm PM last year for $130. The only reason I bought it was because it was so cheap. I use it on an older bike that I mostly ride in my basement on a dumb trainer for interval training, and occasional rides outside when the weather is bad. It works fine, I've had zero issues with it and never really think about it. If it's inaccurate, I wouldn't ever know because I have no other power meter numbers to compare it to.

I've wanted to get a second one for my main bike, but the prices are a bit much to justify. I'll also probably get a smart trainer at some point. I suppose when I have multiple power meters, I'll start to care about the accuracy more.

MoAlpha

Huh...

I recently pulled the spent batteries that power the compass light in a set of Steiner marine binoculars and noticed they were Renatas. I wonder if they're "special" too.

Trsnrtr

From the P2M Classic manual:

"10.4 Life of battery The battery can measure performance for about 400 hours. Use no other than the battery type CR2450N by RENATA as replacement. Batteries from other manufacturers are often not compatible with the battery holders in the battery compartment."

Bold added by me.

MoAlpha

Krauts

Atlas Shrugged

At most I would replace batteries twice a year which would work out to about 8,000 km. Not sure if you would consider that eating batteries. I used a standard CR2450 once without a issue before I found the miracle of Amazon. I took their upgrade deal a couple of years ago and now use the ng which works great.

Trsnrtr

Yes, mine went bad over time somehow. It originally could go ~1k miles but it decreased to about a 100 miles. I contacted P2M and they had no idea why it would do that and decided that my battery source (from a seller on Amazon) was probably selling old batteries so I bought batteries from another source but usage was the same. After a multitude of batteries, I gave up and shelved it. No problem since I have no bikes to use it anymore, anyway.

I put it in the marketplace.

RChung

My condolences, you'll never get that part of your life back. Even I don't listen to most of the things I say. Sorry.

tomato coupe

Maybe off topic, but will noise cancelling headphones get rid of the voices in my head?

Metallifan33

Let's not get into the earphones argument again.