NYC Cyclist Flips out with ULock
07-27-09, 12:57 PM
#101
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Naptown
Posts: 1,133
Bikes: NWT 24sp DD; Brompton M6R
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
1 Post
If the cyclist is using a u-lock, that may be true. If the cyclist is using a submachine gun, that would not really be true. Even if the use of the submachine gun met the legal standard for self-defense (i.e., if it was used in a way that the force used was “reasonable”), its use would still be in violation of federal law. Same thing for other outlawed weapons.
That doesn’t seem true from an intuitive perspective, and my guess is it wouldn’t be true if subjected to some simple physics calculations.
He stopped, and then he waded back in to take a few more whacks after the pedestrian had stopped engaging with the cyclist. Even assuming that the cyclist had been defending himself previously—an assumption that would only be true if his first swing of the u-lock was in response to an attack or threat of imminent attack from the pedestrian—his self-defense ended when he waded back in, and what occurred after that point was assault.
That’s a good question, but it’s not really the only real question. If a prosecutor had this video as evidence, he/she could file charges against the cyclist based solely upon the video evidence. The prosecutor would not be hamstrung by the lack of audio; in fact, quite the contrary.
Of course, the cyclist could argue that the pedestrian threatened him with imminent attack, but where’s the evidence for that? There’s no audio to indicate that the cyclist was threatened, and the pedestrian’s actions just prior to being hit don’t indicate that the cyclist was being attacked, or even under imminent threat of attack. So all the cyclist would have in support of his argument would be his claim that he was threatened—and that would be countered by the pedestrian’s denial and the lack of any corroborating evidence on the video. Because there’s no evidence that the cyclist was threatened, but there is evidence that the cyclist threw the first blow, the cyclist’s (hypothetical) uncorroborated claim that he was threatened would be unlikely to counter the evidence against him.
Evidence that the cyclist threw the first blow (which I have a hard time seeing on the video, but I'll assume for these purposes that it's present) doesn't help us decide which witness is more credible. If the cyclist is telling the truth that he was about to be attacked, he is allowed to take the first punch. Knowing that he took the first punch doesn't help us decide whether he is telling the truth. (Obviously, if the film showed that the ped took the first punch, this would help the cyclist with his self defense claim - but the cyclist taking the first punch is neutral given the rest of what we know).
Because of this, if he truly was threatened, it would be virtually essential to have any witnesses to the altercation testify that they heard a credible threat made against the cyclist just before he struck the first blow (or alternately, to testify that the pedestrian attacked, unseen by the camera, just before the cyclist struck his first blow).
The prosecution and defense is mostly theoretical, however. What would most likely happen in the real world is the prosecutor would charge the cyclist with the most serious charge he could press, and then would offer to let the cyclist plead down to a lesser charge. In some states—Oregon, in particular—the attacker would be facing serious prison time for using a deadly weapon, and the defense would have very little room to bargain. As a consequence, defendants regularly plead to lesser charges, because the alternatives are so much worse.
And, again, we don't know why the cyclist was being followed or what sort of exchange the two men had, so it's also hard to know how justified that the cyclist may feel.
07-27-09, 01:42 PM
#102
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lincoln Ne
Posts: 226
Bikes: RANS Stratus and a Mountain bike
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
The problem is we cannot hear what is said. My take for what its worth is on the side of the cyclist. The cyclist appears to want to end the confrontation and moves away. The ped follows and seems to cause the cyclist to respond. These days some people like that ped just wont let things drop. As far as Im concerned the ped got what he asked for.
07-27-09, 03:22 PM
#103
Member
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Regardless of what the pedestrian did, I think it could have been better handled without a metal weapon. Using the lock was way overboard...
07-27-09, 03:40 PM
#104
Cycle Year Round
Amazing that some of you guys think that would be a fair fight.
The U-lock simply turned the situation into a fair fight.
07-27-09, 03:41 PM
#105
Cycle Year Round
07-27-09, 10:42 PM
#106
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,884
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
EDIT: BTW, bar exam courses cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $3,000 dollars (guesstimate), and take two months of full-time study. The bar exam alone costs in the neighborhood of $750 (guesstimate). Bar dues are $3,000 annually. I see no need to spend that kind of cash (assuming I even had that kind of cash) just to demonstrate to some fool on the internet that my Juris Doctor represents years of legal study that he doesn't have, especially when I consider that after passing the bar exam, I will be doing the exact same job I am doing now.
2nd EDIT: My firm regularly receives letters of inquiry from newly-minted attorneys who have been admitted to the bar, and who would give their right arms to have my job. Strange, isn't it, that my boss keeps me on when he could have a "real lawyer" at the same pay level? Stranger still that he hasn't hired a "real expert" from the interwebz.
1. if you are so well paid why does $3,000 seem unjustifiably expensive?
*also, this notion of gaining freely available legal knowledge without paying large sums for further instruction reflects my early point regarding my ability to learn the same knowledge w/o attending legal institutions. perhaps im an autodidact. crazy, i know...point being, you dismissed my point and then made a strikingly similar point.
2. you say, "my firm". its not your firm
3. what is the name of this firm? what is your exact position?
4. the fact you wrote "...newly-minted attorneys who have been admitted to the bar, and who would give their right arms to have my job"...when you stick your head in your @$$ you must eat a lot because you are full of your own sh1.t
07-28-09, 01:39 AM
#107
Frame Catastrophizer
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Suburban Chicago
Posts: 450
Bikes: Surly Instigator
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
What a perfect example of how to overanalyze and get all wound up about an incomplete video and turn it into a personal dispute over who is or isn't qualified to overanalyze said video.
Can I play?
Anyone mention hitler yet?
Can I play?
Anyone mention hitler yet?
07-28-09, 01:45 AM
#108
Conservative Hippie
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wakulla Co. FL
Posts: 4,271
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This:
Comes back around to this:
Which is great advice ... as long as both sides are working off the same Hollywood script. It doesn't work that way in a street fight ... in real life.
Which is great advice ... as long as both sides are working off the same Hollywood script. It doesn't work that way in a street fight ... in real life.
Last edited by CommuterRun; 07-28-09 at 03:17 AM.
07-28-09, 03:57 AM
#109
Senior Member
Bikes are faster than legs alone, also, ulock to the dome isn't tactful at all.
But that is one dude, he might not have handled it very well.
But that is one dude, he might not have handled it very well.
07-28-09, 02:15 PM
#111
Cycle Year Round
Those rates seem amazingly low for professional fees. I do not know what lawyers in Hawaii shell out, but for my environmental science work, it cost at least $3,000 a year for certification renewals, exams, licenses, etc.
07-28-09, 03:36 PM
#112
Violin guitar mandolin
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Friendsville, TN, USA
Posts: 1,171
Bikes: Wilier Thor, Fuji Professional, LeMond Wayzata
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Professional tax $150, CLE $450 minimum. I think there are some other fees. The big costs are insurance, time, and stress. Why I run a violin shop.
Amazing how people get sucked into arguing!
Each side has such a different story, too. Fortunately juries seem at least "OK" at getting things generally right much of the time.
Amazing how people get sucked into arguing!
Each side has such a different story, too. Fortunately juries seem at least "OK" at getting things generally right much of the time.
07-28-09, 05:37 PM
#113
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
"1. if you are so well paid why does $3,000 seem unjustifiably expensive?
*also, this notion of gaining freely available legal knowledge without paying large sums for further instruction reflects my early point regarding my ability to learn the same knowledge w/o attending legal institutions. perhaps im an autodidact. crazy, i know...point being, you dismissed my point and then made a strikingly similar point."
he didn't say what you think he did. Bar review courses are for law school graduates that would like an intensive REVIEW session with a tutor and some study aids.
"2. you say, "my firm". its not your firm"
This is about as petty as it comes. In any case, it's quite common for attorney's to refer to firms in this manner.
"3. what is the name of this firm? what is your exact position?"
ah yes, and go ahead and ask for his phone number, home address, etc.
"4. the fact you wrote "...newly-minted attorneys who have been admitted to the bar, and who would give their right arms to have my job"...when you stick your head in your @$$ you must eat a lot because you are full of your own sh1.t"
with the job market as it is right now, new attorneys would give their right arm for quite a few jobs. If his is a good one, he's telling the truth. In any case, this kind of nonsense really isn't welcome here (which is why you had to write like a ten year old on AOL to write it out.).
*also, this notion of gaining freely available legal knowledge without paying large sums for further instruction reflects my early point regarding my ability to learn the same knowledge w/o attending legal institutions. perhaps im an autodidact. crazy, i know...point being, you dismissed my point and then made a strikingly similar point."
he didn't say what you think he did. Bar review courses are for law school graduates that would like an intensive REVIEW session with a tutor and some study aids.
"2. you say, "my firm". its not your firm"
This is about as petty as it comes. In any case, it's quite common for attorney's to refer to firms in this manner.
"3. what is the name of this firm? what is your exact position?"
ah yes, and go ahead and ask for his phone number, home address, etc.
"4. the fact you wrote "...newly-minted attorneys who have been admitted to the bar, and who would give their right arms to have my job"...when you stick your head in your @$$ you must eat a lot because you are full of your own sh1.t"
with the job market as it is right now, new attorneys would give their right arm for quite a few jobs. If his is a good one, he's telling the truth. In any case, this kind of nonsense really isn't welcome here (which is why you had to write like a ten year old on AOL to write it out.).
07-28-09, 05:43 PM
#114
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 357
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Are we talking the real world fair here or Hawaiian "island justice" fair?
07-28-09, 06:37 PM
#115
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Considering the cyclist tried to walk away.......
a) That was filmed in the Bronx......I know the area, (Live in the Bronx)
b) People here carry and use things you do not see right away like razors, small knives and watches around their hand.
c) I would've done the same until the attacker was down. You don't take chances around here.
The guy surely did not look like a bike messenger.
a) That was filmed in the Bronx......I know the area, (Live in the Bronx)
b) People here carry and use things you do not see right away like razors, small knives and watches around their hand.
c) I would've done the same until the attacker was down. You don't take chances around here.
The guy surely did not look like a bike messenger.
07-28-09, 09:37 PM
#116
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 346
Bikes: Zeus Professional, Juncker Calypso, Lotus Eclair, Dahon Speed, Raleigh Twenty
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
that took place on the corner of Allen and Delancey
07-29-09, 01:04 AM
#117
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,884
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
"
with the job market as it is right now, new attorneys would give their right arm for quite a few jobs. If his is a good one, he's telling the truth. In any case, this kind of nonsense really isn't welcome here (which is why you had to write like a ten year old on AOL to write it out.).
with the job market as it is right now, new attorneys would give their right arm for quite a few jobs. If his is a good one, he's telling the truth. In any case, this kind of nonsense really isn't welcome here (which is why you had to write like a ten year old on AOL to write it out.).
go say a prayer or something
07-29-09, 01:07 AM
#118
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,884
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
hawaiian island justice would involve coercing and attacking natives while instituting virtual slavery/servitude, then selling it as a perfect getaway.
07-29-09, 01:10 AM
#119
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,884
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Considering the cyclist tried to walk away.......
a) That was filmed in the Bronx......I know the area, (Live in the Bronx)
b) People here carry and use things you do not see right away like razors, small knives and watches around their hand.
c) I would've done the same until the attacker was down. You don't take chances around here.
The guy surely did not look like a bike messenger.
a) That was filmed in the Bronx......I know the area, (Live in the Bronx)
b) People here carry and use things you do not see right away like razors, small knives and watches around their hand.
c) I would've done the same until the attacker was down. You don't take chances around here.
The guy surely did not look like a bike messenger.
really though...i guess we can know no attack would happen because the asian man did not slap the cyclist with his glove
07-29-09, 08:08 PM
#120
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
07-29-09, 09:26 PM
#121
Bike ≠ Car ≠ Ped.
Yeah, because someone with some maturity knows how to walk away. Or maybe they don't even put themselves into such stupid situations in the first place.
07-30-09, 01:49 PM
#122
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,884
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
its good to know that no matter how determined someone is to harm you, you can walk away and not be attacked. it makes perfect sense.
thats why im for abolishing the police and military.
if only **** victims were smart enough to walk away from the ******.
it's great to live in a society where all violent crime can be avoided simply by walking away; i do prefer
to look at the violence forecast in each area i may pass through, that way i can avoid violence.
here are links to examples of the F**king idiots who dont walk away or avoid stupid situations:
https://www.vancouversun.com/technolo...762/story.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUkiyBVytRQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlP9-8f5YpE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx0-dN3giY0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za35LxmBKaQ
again...all of the people in these links are immature and stupid.
07-30-09, 01:53 PM
#123
Bike ≠ Car ≠ Ped.
Speaking of walking away from a stupid and immature argument...
07-30-09, 02:12 PM
#124
Just ride it.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 336
Bikes: S&M Black Bike, FIT 3.5s, KHS Solo One (destroyed in roof rack incident), Bianchi Pista (sold), Trek 6000 SS(temporarily dismantled), Trek 850 1x8 , Generic SS 20" folder, Kona Shonky, Sunday Wave-C, Surly Cross Check
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
In Florida, on the other hand (I'll accept what you're saying as fact, although I haven't researched Florida law), the cyclist would be allowed to stand his ground, even if it means a certainty that the other guy would attack him.
This raises an interesting issue-- actions that constitute self-defense in one state may constitute mutual combat in another state. For cyclists whose own states grant wide latitude in self-defense, it's important to know what the law is when riding through other states.
This raises an interesting issue-- actions that constitute self-defense in one state may constitute mutual combat in another state. For cyclists whose own states grant wide latitude in self-defense, it's important to know what the law is when riding through other states.
I agree with you 100% that it's important to know the laws pertaining to self defense when in other states. It's a good idea to study the statutes of the individual state, especially if you if you plan to be traveling armed.
