Bikerider007

Great color. Can't wait to see it in ship shape.

USAZorro

I'm looking for Easter-colored bar tape. The matching saddle could be the real challenge here.

fleslider 

Ohh nice, thats gonna be a fun build!

Steve Whitlatch 

Very cool frame. Please show the progress at every step? I love bringing bikes back to life, it is fun to watch too.

Sir_Name 

That'll do it. Another vote for plenty of progress pics if not too much of a pain - it's fun watching along through the build.

noglider 

The graphic that @juvela posted shows that the Gran Sport dropouts are forged but the Competition ones are stamped. That's the opposite of what I would expect from those names.

I vote against a pastel colored saddle. That's just gross.

rustystrings61 

One of these just popped up on the big auction site here. I think the seller is a bit optimistic about the value and he has mis-dated it, and I am not so sure he has the correct crankset for this bike, simply because I cannot recall ever seeing a Stronglight 49 come as the stock crank on any Raleigh. But I know never to say never when it comes to the heron ... anyway, this might be helpful for getting a sense of how they looked.

Honestly, it seems like all of a sudden lilac Competitions are popping up everywhere!

USAZorro

He's got it mis-dated, and yes, he is optimistic on his asking price. I do believe the Stronglight 49 was the original crankset, though I doubt anything else about the drive-train is as-shipped. The Grand Sports (aka Gran Sport, aka Grand Sport) and Super Course also were equipped with a Stronglight 49 crankset for a few years in the early 1970's.

nlerner

Do you mean the Stronglight mod. 93? I can't say I've ever seen a 49D stock on those models.

USAZorro

Could be. Those Stronglight cranksets all look the same to me, and the specs in the 71 and 72 catalogs don't tell me the model.

rustystrings61 

Revealing my OCD tendencies, and because I don't recall ever actually seeing a timeline assembled for these, poking around Kurt Kaminer's The Headbadge's catalogs online indicates the cranksets used were-

Gran(d) Sport(s) -
(1970) Zeus 50.4 bcd alloy cotterless 45/52T
(1971) not catalogued
(1972) catalog photo shows what appears to be Zeus, specification page lists "Stronglite (sic) alloy"
(1973) catalog photo shows Stronglight 93 with pants guard, which indicates 125mm spindle & pants guard, specs page simply says "alloy cotterless with chainguard, leaving the door open for the Nervar Star w/ pants guard, which leads me to think they used whichever of the two they had in stock that day.
(1974) photo is mod. 93, spec sheet says "Stronglight cotterless alloy with disc)"
(1975) photo is mod. 93, spec sheet states "alloy cotterless with alloy disc"
(1976) same as previous year
(1977) not catalogued

Competition -
(1969) Zeus 50.4 bcd -going by catalog photo (45/52?)
(1970) not catalogued
(1971) not catalogued, but appears to be Nervar 50.4 bcd cotterless (like their version of a T.A. or Stronglight 49), turns up on multiple examples in internet searches
(1972) not catalogued
(1973) Competition Mk. II, catalog photo shows T.A. 3-pin alloy cotterless
(1974) as above, photo and spec sheet agree on T.A. 3-pin cotterless alloy
(1975) same crankset, now described on spec sheet as "T.A. Criterium alloy cotterless"
(1976) same as previous year
(1977) becomes the Competition G.S. with Campagnolo GS 3-pin crankset and Campagnolo derailleurs

Probably worthwhile listing both together, too, since there appear to have been some odd overlaps between these two models prior to 1973 or so. Interesting to note that the Nervar Star was never pictured or named as a crankset for the GS, reinforcing that whole perception of them as the also-rans.

USAZorro

I agree about the dropout weirdness. My '74 Grand Sports (guessing it's '74 because there is no serial number stamped anywhere) has stamped dropouts. I have to constantly remind myself that, "with Raleigh, all things are possible".

Yes. I was joking about the pastel saddle. The saddle situation did put me in contact with rhm, and after a short series of exchanges, I'm contemplating leather paint to produce something close to the contrasting blue of the head tube.

Slightspeed

I don't know how to tell a Carlton from a Raleigh, except the Carltons seem to have two holes for mounting the head badge, and mine has 3, matching the Raleigh badge (originally missing on my frame).

juvela

Thanks for sharing this list.

It does contain one incorrect statememt. It lists the Zeus Competition ("50.4") chainset as having a 50.4 BCD. While the bolt circle looks the same as other five pin sets it is a unique size and does NOT interchange with others. This error was begun by Howard Sutherland in his first edition service manual. Evidently he did not have one to measure and just assumed it was 50.4. One curious thing about this model is that its inner has the same bolt circle as the original Campag Record chainset (151) but they made inners for it down to 43T.

Here is the VB entry for the chainset:

VeloBase.com - Component: Zeus Competition

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rustystrings61 

Now THAT is odd - but in the end, not too surprising, considering the Nervar Star's lone 128 bcd. And I am in there with Mr. Sutherland, as I have never actually seen one of these in real life, only photos.

So - does anyone have one of those Zeus units to measure? This is going to be what my wife calls as a "splinter of the mind" until I have the answer ...

rhm

How different was the Zeus BCD?

English cranks of the pre-war period, such as the Williams B100 but also Constrictor, BSA, and others, also had a five pin spider that looks like the TA or Stronglight 50.4 but isn't quite the same. You can modify them to make them "kinda" fit. I'm not sure about the many others that look like this --Magistroni, Cyclo Rosa, &c &c &c.

juvela

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Have a couple of the sets but never bothered to measure. Am away from my bike things this week so I'll have to wait a bit. Have always thought of this set as ending in 1971 - that is about the latest that any new bicycles came with it. The Zeus catalogue nr. 101 dated 1970 posted at velopages does show it. It is absent from catalogue nr. 102 of 1973.



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Edit - Thanks very much for posting these two beautiful sets rhm! On the riveted set it appears there is something in addition to a simple spacer between the chainwheels. Is this a feature to aid shifting? Have not seen a set done like this previously.

Recollect that the Zeus Competition BCD is several mm larger than the 50.4 size - too great a difference to adapt with some hand filing.

noglider 

Rudi, I love your affinity for old steel cranksets. You've given me an appreciation for them.

juvela

Zeus Competition chainset BCD upate -

Pulled one o' me sets out the reliquary for a wee party with Mr. Caliper Vernier. The resultation? - a measurement of 55.2mm. Done with me auld Helios analogue fellow so measurement may not be as fine as with a digital.

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USAZorro

Looks like a Worksop made. Same lugs as my Black Competition.


Some progress has been occurring in the background. Have a crankset, can use the original Weinmann brakes, frame is about as clean as it's going to get, and rubbing compound has reached its limits. Will definitely be looking for some nail polish for touching up the more egregious spots where there is bare metal. Crossing fingers there's a stem that fits in the Box O' Crap that should be arriving here in a few days.

How it sits at the moment:



and then there's this tangent to the project.









As beautiful as rhm 188 is, it will be getting an extra bit done to it before it finds its home on the lilac Competition. The rivets will get smoothed down, and then the leather will be deglazed and painted (with "Sapphire" colored leather paint). The bar tape and possibly brake hood colors will match.

Note that this is the first of this line to use #6 size rivets. It's so impressive that my wife wants me to pursue another order.

rhm

^^Oh, I was going to email you, tell you to expect something in the mail today!

Judging by the color of the leather, it's not quite dry yet. Over the next week or two, I believe most of the dark areas will fade. I haven't used that leather paint, so can't tell you what to expect, but look forward to your results.

USAZorro

Seems an instance where patience may be called for on my part.

Good thing I have 6 other projects. lol

Salamandrine 

Looking forward to seeing this come together. Are those contrast head tube and seat tube panels hammer finish paint? If so, I'm not sure I've seen this in a factory finish before. This whole bike is seriously purple regardless.

That soon to be painted leather RHM custom saddle should be very cool. Did it start off as a Team Pro? I've thought about painting saddles a couple times, but never done it.

I'm starting to realize my ideal saddle is about as wide as a Swift or Pro in the back, wider in the middle, and flat on the top like a B17. I prefer a gentle taper front to rear. The T shape of the go fast Brooks is not ideal.

rhm

Interesting! And not really a surprise to me.

One of the most difficult things about making a Brooks style leather saddle top is getting it appropriately narrow in the center, the T-shape you refer to. It's much easier to make a V-shaped saddle.

I believe the Ottusi style modification, popular in 50's-60's Italy, involved making the saddle more V-shaped, and with a smoother curve from top to sides-- so, if I understand you correctly, exactly what you describe.

The saddle shown above is built on a Brooks/Wrights narrow frame.

USAZorro

It's a metallic blue that has weathered. I can see how you might get that impression though.