The increase in rim rigidity is a result of using fewer spokes, not a reason to use fewer spokes. All else equal, vintage "high spoke count" (e.g. 36-spoke) wheels can be lighter than modern "low spoke count" wheels. Modern fashion values aerodynamics above low weight, and the low spoke count confers an aerodynamic advantage, which must be accommodated by using a more rigid, and consequently heavier, rim (the longer, unsupported span between spokes on a low spoke count wheel means that the rim must provide strength that would otherwise be provided by more numerous spokes). When you also use a deep-profile rim for further aerodynamic advantage, that also increases the mass of the wheel over that of a vintage wheel.

I don't know what the first sentence means. Roval was one of the first companies to do this, and they created a stiff aero rim so fewer spokes would be necessary. They didn't start with fragile box rims, use too few spokes, break a bunch of wheels and then chose to stiffen the rim.

The lightest of the old tubular box rims was about 285 grams. Butted spokes weigh 6 grams each and brass nipples 1 gram. 7gr x 36 = 252. 252 + 285 = 537

A Kinlin aero clincher rim is 385 grams. 7gr x 20 = 140. 140 + 385 = 525

That's a weight savings of 12 grams, despite going to a clincher rim. There were lighter spokes than 6 grams in the '70s, and there are lighter ones in common use today. Using modern spokes, Kinlin rims and modern hubs I built a sub 1200 gram wheelset.


So I don't agree that 36 spoke wheels were lighter.

WRONG!!! What you are parroting is an industry lie. Sure, if you go from 40 spokes to 28 spokes you would save a lot of weight, and going with bladed spokes could be more aero, but the rims are not stronger. Today there are more rims cracking at the spoke hole than ever before, how do I know this you scream...because my 32 spoke rear wheel just yesterday I found 7 hairline cracks on my rim of my touring bike. I went to the bike shop to order another wheel and had a long conversation with the bike mechanic/owner and that is what he told me, these 32 spoke wheels are NOT as strong as the 36 spoke wheels despite how they are making the rims. He said those 4 extra spokes adds a lot of strength to the wheel but adds very little to the weight and does nothing for aero dynamics.

The weight difference is only about 4%, but you gain about 13% strength if the rim is the same for both.

Problem with those weights though is that in order for a 32 spoke rim to be strong enough the rim has to be heavier by an average of 15 grams per wheel, now the percentage of weight gain is about 3%.

WRONG! My post was about how the rims are structurally more rigid, largely due to shape. How much should I bet your rim with the spoke holes cracking is also a box section rim?

If this all comes down to spoke hole strength, there wouldn't be rims with less than 20 spokes. But you think your 32 spoke wheel is special? It is only special because it was poorly made.

Double wrong, my rim was not a box rim

So, that must mean all wheels with less than 36 spokes are going to detonate later today. Some of them are 40 years old.

You had a bad rim, likely combined with too low or too high tension. I've seen lots of bad rims - a bunch from DT, for instance. It isn't a basic problem, it is specific to certain rims and certain builds.

You don't have special knowledge. You have an anecdote.

Maybe the recent crop of engineers built up a pair of 48 spoke BMX wheels when they were children...
"This is Crazy! there's got to be a better way!

I've seen wheels... rear... cranked to 150kg on the DS to offset the lower tension via the NDS. 1 in particular pulled the nip thru.. remaining pretty true.

Tryning to find New hubs and rims for a modern bike in even 36 hole is hard. we ended up with 32 on our e-tandem all dt swiss. butthe guy that built the rear wheels jsut did not know the rim well and we had one cracked rim and some broken spokes after the rebuild. but the same parts with a builder who knew the rim inside and out, and its been fine in at least 6000 miles. The bike with us is around 420 or so pounds. we ride off-road somewhat too.

Spoke back when spoke to a guy wanting 36 rear... who found a decent 18H then had it drilled out to 36. Have no idea the brand used..doable I guess but a stretch. I run several Powerway hubs w/o nary an issue. Very light.. yet lacking the boutique name and price tag. In correspondence I was told a 36 could be drilled.

"same parts with a builder who knew the rim inside and out, and its been fine in at least 6000 miles" << my real reason for inquiry having bias vs all DT'. My guess incorrect lacking pattern 1st time around? 2nd... failure to use a quality butted spoke like the Saim Force 3x butted or the 2x 13/14 S strong.

The problem with drilling an 18 hole hub out to a 36 is you end up with spoke holes aligned flange to flange instead of offset. Building with that is doable, but you will end up with two different length spokes on one side.

he used the force spokes. I dont remember what the other guy said was wrong. part of it is trhe first guy had never used that rim before.

Your point is? An 18 original still offset like any other rear.. drilling would maintain that pattern.

The offset for 18 is one full hole. The offset for 36 is a half hole. The 18 hole one cannot be re-clocked at a half hole offset.

No it would not. The new hole you are going to put in the left flange will be directly aligned with a hole in the right flange and vise versa.

https://leonard.io/edd/