dobber

But was the death cycling related?

Chris L

Yeah, I've noticed that too. Of course, it should probably also be noted that many of his critics seem to lack experience of actually dealing with day to day conditions of cycling on errands that actually have deadlines, or to destinations that are even moderately popular (and accordingly trafficked). I guess the whole problem is that those who lack experience don't realise that things that "feel" safe at any given moment don't necessarily correlate to any real reduction of risk. I've also noticed that cycling in traffic seems to be one of the very few disciplines in life where, according to people's perceptions, experience doesn't seem to equate to knowledge. This is one of the reasons I rarely visit this forum anymore. Seems that anytime someone discusses the use of vehicular cycling, the stock standard responses seem to be "you're trying to push some extreme leftist political agenda" or "you're an ******* trying to upset motorists", or "you've got a death wish". All of which come from people with no experience in vehicular cycling because they imagine it might be "dangerous".

To be honest, I'm also beginning to feel this way about cycling advocacy in general. It was only Thursday night at a dinner with other supposed "cyclists" that I heard people whining no end about the dangers of the bikepaths they ride on, but no vows not to use it in future. In fairness, I didn't bother to make that suggestion -- past experience tells me it would have been a futile pursuit. These days I just concentrate on my own riding, and utilising my experience for my own benefit. If anyone is interested in what I have to offer, I'm quite happy to impart some of that experience, but I don't think I'm going to bother in a public forum such as this again. I'm becoming increasingly convinced that few people are at all interested.

Chris L

What the f*ck does compassion have to do with it? And what the f*ck does having or not having children have to do with it? Granted, it's worth posting if there's something that can be learned from it, but 90% of the time it's just a four-line newspaper article that tells us nothing about how the incident occurred, apart from whether or not the cyclist was wearing a helmet. Perhaps if you started posting something constructive, you mightn't need to wade through so may "incompassionate" threads.

Yup.

Gojohnnygo.

Chris L, I think Stacey11 is trying to say that if one cyclist dies somewhere we should give are condolences. The compassion of the cyclist to another cyclist should be kept close to the heart. Simple things as helping one another. With a flat, broken chain and in times of need.

We are a very small group world wide and we all should stick together.

Stacey11

You and "Live311" sound like you would make great friends. Love your language too, how classy. A person that has kids does not have the immature mentality of "life sucks and then you die" - or "oh well, things happen". The article I was responding to was in regards to a 7 yr old boy that had been run over by a drunk driver in my town - that's why "having a kid or not having a kid" matters when it comes to the subject I was responding to. So, obviously you are not married and do not have kids, because life is all about YOU and YOU having fun, isn't it? You're probably one of those bad SUV drivers too.

Rowan

Sums it all up exactly.

Cycling advocacy usually (90%) is just whingeing and whining from people who simply can't be bothered or see no reason to go get some training, or at least read appropriate texts. Then they want special facilities or the dumbing down of existing facilities to compensate for their ignoranc and incompetence. It's another reason why CM, in my estimation, is almost irrelevant as a cycling advocacy strategy.

There are some cycling advocates for whom I have great respect. They usually say, somewhere, sometime: "I am a member of the local council/county bike committee, and we work together with traffic engineers to find solutions". Oddly, they are the ones who have understood and adopted the principles of vehicular cycling.

Chris L

Actually, I've met plenty who do. More importantly, at no point did I give any indication of having this mentality. I merely mentioned that whining about it here is not going to change the world. As I said before, if there is something we can learn from it, then by all means post it. If there is some realistic way that we can make a difference, or perhaps a means of contacting those suffering to send our condolences, let us know. However, simply whining about it here isn't going to change the world.

Then how about posting it in that thread?

So having a kid is a pre-requisite for having compassion is it? I've got news for you -- we've all lost relatives or friends at times when we shouldn't have. Whether they are adults or children has no bearing on whether we are able (or allowed) to feel compassion.

Well, three conclusions jumped to in one sentence on the basis of no reasearch. Even in the Advocacy and Whining forum, that must nearly be a record. Well, you got the first point right. The second one, well, there are plenty of people and quite a few charities who probably wouldn't suggest that I'm totally self-centred. Of course, the difference is that I'm able to assist people in the real world without bragging about "feeling compassion" or whining about it on a forum, so they probably don't count, do they? The third conclusion couldn't be further from the truth, but hey, don't worry, that's never stopped you before, has it?

bkrownd

Ah, I see we're humor-challenged. Well, I don't have (two-legged) kids, I'm not married, and I'm quite happy with that, but apparently you've got a problem with it. Very enlightened of you. So go ahead, look down on me and think whatever you want in your abundant ignorance - it doesn't mean a thing, but I'm sure it makes you feel warm, fuzzy and wonderfully superior all the same. You Da Man. I quiver in your moral shadow. Yuuup.

drroebuck

Chris L .... Stacey11 is recently registered and I think feeling a little empowered. Grain of salt.

Back on topic: despite all the bickering throughout these threads, and despite all the bragging, boasting, disagreements, condescension, diatribes, oblique references, trolling and insults, aren't we all part of one big-ass fraternity? I kind of think so. That's why I say hello to other cyclists (even though they don't always say hello back ... go L.A.!), that's why I check out their bikes and gear, that's why I'm green with envy and super-careful-courteous when I see them while I'm driving, and that's why I like to know when another cyclist has been downed. It's not morbid fascination. I certainly don't glom for gruesome details. But it's out of respect, sympathy and, most important, empathy. Sure, it's a little depressing at times. But considering the rest of the world doesn't give a sh*t ... shouldn't we?

That being said, it would also be nice to see more positive stories from time to time.

Rowan

Yeah... I like most of this, too because of the compassion without the hysteria.

Like... there are no absolutes... going too far in one direction is as bad as going in the other.

Chris L

You know, there was once a time when I felt that way, too. However, many of the experiences I've had in the last 12 months in particular would disprove that theory. It's not only all of the things you've said above, it's been the behaviour of many cyclists I've seen on the road, their attitudes, the total and complete lack of empathy or (dare I say it) compassion on the two occasions I've been physically assaulted when cycling in the last 12 months (and that's only counting the ones who actually threw punches, there were plenty who aimed their cars... oh forget it!). Ironically, about the only ones who cared were on this forum. I hardly ever get cyclists waving to me or saying "hello" -- unless they're people I already know.

I now believe that cyclists are basically the same as everyone else, and generally expect the same type of behaviour from them as from everyone else. Sure, not everyone out there on a bike is a moron, but neither is everyone in a car either. However, the percentage of people in both categories who would fit that description generally inspires a little cynicism when evaluating behavioural expectations.

Call me cynical (better yet, call me "pragmatic"), but I suggest most deaths these days experience the "rest of the world doesn't give a sh*t". It's not just something that applies to cyclists. Again, if there's something positive any of us can do to assist those suffering, or if there's something we can learn from what happened, then post it. However, a four-line newspaper article that tells us nothing apart from whether or not the cyclist was wearing a helmet at the time (like that's going to ease the suffering) is pretty worthless in my view.

Daily Commute

Having a kid is not a prerequisite to compassion, but Stacey11 proves that it can make you obnoxiously arrogant.

khuon

No offense but I'm really surprised that it took you this long to realise this. A person does not magically become some sort of saint when they go to straddle a bicycle saddle. We are afterall human beings first and cyclists second.

Daily Commute

You don't become a saint by riding a bicycle, but, according to Stacey11, you can come close by having a one-night-stand and carrying the resulting fetus to term.

Edit: This rhetoric was over the top. Sorry.

glowingrod

Gee whiz stacy, you may want to lighten up a bit especialy since your motivations are no more or less important than anyone else on the forum. It's not the fault of anyone here that you have kids of your own, I'd feel rotten too! After all a truly compassionate person would've realized that there are a surplus of kids on the market waiting for loving parents before selfishly concieving their own. Now that there isn't anything to be done for it (unless you can afford another mouth?) you may as well use the forum to learn about safety and advocacy rather than ripping ineffectively into strangers. At least then you can help make the world a safer place for the 2-3 kids that it centers around.

Chris L

Alright, now it's going a little too far, time to don the mod's cap.

Guys, the point has been made, perhaps it's time to lay off Stacey11 for a while and get back to discussing the issue at hand.

Chris L

Perhaps you misunderstood the sentence, or perhaps I just worded it poorly. What I was referring to was this idea that there is some sort of "brotherhood of cycling" out there. Again, I once believed that one to be true, but less so these days.

Don't worry, I was well aware that there are plenty of morons out there on bikes all along.

Dutchy

Hey Chris, I'm still laughing about the "You're probably one of those bad SUV drivers too." That's bloody funny.

SERENITY NOW! SERENITY NOW!

CHEERS.

Mark

drroebuck

Don't get me wrong .... I'm not saying that the other cyclists I see have a sense of brotherhood. But I myself feel a sense of brotherhood toward other cyclists.

And yeah, especially here in L.A., there are plenty of moronic a$$es.

Stacey11

Daily Commute - You are a total IDIOT - don't ever have kids.

seely

I don't think you've impressed anyone with your charm or wisdom either.

live311

Wow, this thread really took a dump.

Stacey11, I wish you the best of luck in your internet crusade against people who disagree with you. Everybody has a purpose in life, and I admire that you've decided to pursue yours with so much passion.

I started this thread in an attempt to lighten things up a little. I don't take message boards too seriously (thus my avatar), but I try to stick to a certain etiquette by not hijacking the serious threads. This forum was getting a little too serious and obsessed with death and murderous SUV drivers, so I simply made a request for someone to post something positive. I couldn't do so myself because I haven't been on my bike in almost 2 months (weather and short days).

Chris L, please don't lock this thread or ban Stacey. This is starting to get good

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Love,
live311

Chris L

I think I'll take the former option. Actually I was thinking about it yesterday, too.