nocturnals4

Hey guys, I am new to cycling as I just purchased my Specialized Roubaix about a month ago. Ive been riding every chance I get and love it. My buddy who I sometimes ride with has been telling me I need to keep my cadence around 80, and that I stomp too much. I just pick a comfortable gear and pedal. I leave him in the dust on the flats though. I average 16-17mph in the flats at the moment... What really be my focus? TIA

Proteos

80 should be your minimum cadence. Find a gear you have to work in to keep that minimum and go from there. I'm also new (about 3 weeks), and I have an old Cannondale. The chain rings (big ones up front) are 50 and 45 teeth for me. If I put it the smaller one (45) and keep the freewheel ring (small ones in the back), on the 16 tooth one (second from smallest), I can easily hit 18 by keeping my cadence at 80. If you up your cadence at that point, a 90 will get you to 20, which is an ideal cadence anyway. You should be shooting for 90 rpm in whatever gear you're pushing with. Anything lower than a 70 or 75 rpm's is too slow and you need to move to the next gear down. I find the 45/16 gear easy enough to run at 80-85 without too much effort. If yours is a slightly smaller gear, you'll have to hit higher cadences to get the same speed. If you're doing about 17 mph it sounds like you're on the smaller front gear and probably on the 19 or whatever the middle back one is. Up your cadence to 90 while on straights and when you can start hitting 100+ without too much discomfort, then go up a gear. Work on cadence first and then power.

Fox Farm

80 rpm is a good reference point. Keeping the cadence up will keep your legs feeling fresher and I believe the accumulation of lactic acid in the leg muscles much less. Some guy named Lance has shown this to be true, particularly when climbing hills. Your dusting your buddy on the flats could have to do with aerobic development between the two of you. Who knows. Back in the early 80s, I use to think that putting it in a big gear and grinding it out was the way to go. I would see the bike racer types with their fast spin and think that they should stop wasting energy and put it in a bigger gear and GO! I hooked up with some one day and sure enough, there they were spinning faster and me grinding it out slower all at the same speed. Come the next hill, they dropped me like a stove coal. My legs were tired and I didn't know it and theirs were fresher. Some race teams have a rule that early on in the season, you are not allowed to use the big front chain ring to force you to develop your 'spin' and build up your aerobic ability. Then you can go to the bigger ring and work on your power development. I seem to recall in the book by Davis Phinney and Connie Carpenter, they address this fast spin vs the grind it out. Their point was that although you may be breathing a little faster and your heart rate faster while spinning, both of those muscle groups, if you can call them that, do not build up lactic acid and fatigue the way that your leg muscles will by pushing the big gear all the time. Try it on your next ride and resist the desire to always go for the big gear. Don't over spin and end up bouncing on the saddle. Does your speedo have a cadence function? If not, try investing in one and drive by the rpm and not the mph, like a race car driver. Motors function best at their intended power curve - or sweet spot. I think that you will find the same for yourself.

johnny99

Pedaling smoothly is even more important than pedaling fast.

Gamecoug

Also important for higher cadence is to try to even out your effort on the revolution. Meaning, don't just use your quads and gluts to push the pedal down on one leg, then the other. Use your hamstrings to pull the pedal through the bottom of the stroke, and use your hip flexors to pull up on the pedal as your legs come up. As i've learned to do that, i've been able to spin faster because my legs have less vertical momentum.

The way to practice this is to spend some time just lifting up on the pedals with your hip flexors. Then spend some time just pulling with your hamstrings. eventually it'll become second nature to pull with your entire leg. This will also help with muscle fatigue.

Obviously this technique requires clip shoes or really tight toe clips.

nocturnals4

GREAT info guys...Thanks

Fox Farm: What you explained would make sense why I leave him in the flats and he catches me in the hills. Thanks for your time.

Gamecoug: Im not sure how to pull up using a particular muscle (hip flexors/hams) Please explain a bit so I can practice this. I do understand that I will be more efficient pedaling circles instead of just stomping the pedals.

I already have a computer that does odo,trip,avs,mxs,time. Is there a way I can keep track of my cadence w/o purchasing another computer? Thanks again

Innes

What my LBS told me about pedaling made the hugest difference. I could never get the "pull the pedal up with your hamstring" thing, but then they finally explained it to me like this:

"Instead of pulling up and pushing down on the pedals, instead use your feet to push the pedal forward, and then pull it backwards. Like sliding your foot forward, then sliding it backward."

Once I started looking at it like that, suddenly I could easily do the "full circle" range of motion. Working your quads and hams together, its much more of a "push your foot forward, then pull it backward" than it is a up/down movement.

Staarkhand

I don't have a cadence sensor right now, but if you're just trying to improve and get in the ballpark, turn your computer over to the time function and count pedal strokes for 10s then multiply by 6. Or count for 6s and multiply by 10, or count for 60s, whatever works for you. This won't tell you if you're at 84 vs 81, but it will tell you if you're around 80 instead of 60.

After checking this way periodically I've found if I do get on a bike with a cadence sensor (I use one indoors weekly) I can almost always guess my cadence to within +/-5 rpms. Maintaining proper cadence is more about reminding myself to spin and be fast and smooth rather than needing to check the computer. Although I'm sure that wouldn't hurt as a constant reminder.

I'm trying to improve my pedal stroke, so about once a week I focus on it. First I'll shift to a higher gear and pedal slowly, really thinking about feeling my way completely around the full 360 degree stroke. I then get into a lower gear and spin up as fast as I can until I start bouncing around, back it off until that stops, then hold it. I then alternate 1-legged pedaling, with the other foot completely off the pedal. Some sort of clipless pedals are pretty much a must there, but I depend on them for a good stroke anyway.

Gamecoug

First off, i should clarify that i am by no means a polished road cyclist. I commute a fair distance to and from work, and in the past year i've gotten a good bit stronger by working hard and following the advice of others, but I'm still a cycling novice in most respects. Much of this stuff I first read online here or there, and i've been working to incorporate it into my rides.

I practiced by focusing on only using my hamstring to move the pedals. Just let your legs rest on the pedals as they go over the top and down the front of the stroke. If you think of the position of your pedal as a clock, use your hamstring to curl your leg as you go from 3:00 to 9:00 or so (pedaling clockwise). By then your other leg will be at 3:00, and you can start the process again. After you get the hang of that, you can add in lifting up on the pedal as it goes from 9:00 to 12:00. Your hip flexor is the muscle with which you lift your leg as you put on a pair of pants (no insult intended, just want to make sure you know what i'm talking about. I could be wrong on the name, but i think that's right).

I started practicing this when I was taking my fixie to and from work (17.5 miles). My gluts and quads just were not conditioned well enough to go the whole 17 miles without a break, so I gave them a break by relaxing them and pulling with my hamstring. You can do the same with a non-fixie, but the fixed gear helps in this regard because your pedals are always moving.

Puffyg

A nice high RPM is a good thing, The one thing a good cyclist would always refer to is "spinning" Don't pedal by pushing down and pulling up on the pedals, but try to spin circles with you feet. SO that is what i try to do

Gamecoug

That's a great way to think of it. The point is that there are 4 big muscles in play here, and you'll go much faster for much longer if you learn how to use all 4.

nocturnals4

Interesting info guys. To me the high cadence just looked like wasted energy. But now I see it as a way of being efficient so Ill be able to do the hills as well as I do the flats. Cant wait till my next trip. Looking like Thursday will be the next available day for me. My rides have been averaging 30 miles which I thought wasnt to bad for a newb. Really happy I found this sport where I can pedal my stresses away

Proteos

30 miles is awesome. I only have time for 18 to 20 most days. I did a 45 mile ride a week or so ago, and it killed me. Of course, that was with only about 2 weeks under my belt, so I'm not going to feel overly bad about it.

Fox Farm

For the ham string pull, imagine that you are scraping mud off the bottom of your shoe.

DaveSSS 

80 is about the slowest I ever pedal and that's only when I'm climbing in the mountains. At 80rpm, I should be shifting to the next lower gear to bring my cadence back up. When I do an interval to test my power output on a long climb, I might average 87rpm and occasionally hit 95.

One thing to keep n mind is that power = torque x cadence. It takes a lot less force on the pedals to produce a given amount of power at 90-110 rpm rahter than 80-90.

nocturnals4

^^nice

Paniolo

Lots of good points. Be aware of your cadence, pedal in circles ... like Fox Farm said I was always told to mimic trying to scrape mud off my shoes at the top and bottom. Fixies are great for cadence and learning to pedal circles. I used to have a 1.5 mile long descent on my 12 mile work commute. I would always play a game to see how high I could get my cadence before I "spun" out and tucked the rest. If I wasn't doing smooth circles I would start bouncing on the saddle somewhere before 120. As I got smoother I would get it up to 140 ... not that fast, but I'm big with long legs and a bad knee too!

Be aware different bodies work best at different cadences. I read an article by Carmichael a couple of years ago about how to test. Power meters were best but a decent alternative was something about a mile or two straight with no stops. After warm up stay at the same cadence the whole time and record avg heart rate for the streach. Come back a day or two later and repeat at 3 or 5 rpm higher. Make sure to maintain a constant rpm for the whole test. Do that for several days increasing your rpm and track your avg heart rates. You may see a constant increase in heart rate, but at some point there will be a big jump. Just before that point is your bodies ideal cadence ... which can change over time as your fitness does so periodically retest. Or it was something like that my memory may have forgotten some important details in a couple of years! Lance is a high rpm spinner ... otoh Ulrich was your typical low rpm diesel, when he got in that power band he could just grind people to dust. High rpm is typically better suited to a sudden attack, or responding to one.

Also, you can play back and forth depending on conditions. High rpm puts more load on your cardio-vascular system. Low rpm grind puts more on your leg muscles. If you feel one system or the other being over taxed you can shift some load to the other by altering rpm. On a flat in the draft you can go to a bigger gear and tuck in to catch your breath. Going up a hill and leg muscles screaming, burning and feel a cramp coming on, pop up a couple of gears, shift saddle position slightly and let your lungs do more work.

Intrepid

I'm really glad I opened this thread. Thanks all.

MONGO!

No.

You don't say...

To the op, there is no rule that you have to spin at 80+rpm.
If you have strong legs you can push a bigger, more efficient gear and go faster with a lower heartrate.

Do what feels good to you.

JoelS

I spin at 110 now, I hit a max of 151 on Sunday's ride, but don't typically get that high. I wouldn't have anything under than 90 for a minimum. Only time I get below that is if I'm working up some steep grade. Yes, I am planning to get a compact.

I find it's much easier on the legs to spin a high cadence. Harder on the cardio though. There's a tradeoff.

KevinF

Your chainrings are 50 and 45 teeth??? Please tell me that's a typo, or you live somewhere where a bridge constitutes a "climb".

Avalanche325

Look at it like this.
If you had to lift 100 lbs over your head, would it be easiest to do it all at once? No. (Mashing)
I am sure you could do 10 lbs 10 times without thinking about it. (Spinning) It is the same amount of work.

The other factor is that when mashing, you are burning your muscles up. You can only do that for a short amount of time. When you are spinning, you are using your heart and lungs to feed your muscles at a sustainable rate. You can do this for much longer.

nocturnals4

For weight loss purposes go for the high cadence? or the stomping?

teetopkram

Not to mention those of us with chronic knee pain...I have chondromalacia patellae and this is a bigger determining factor in how hard I can ride or train compared to muscle fatigue, miles, recovery, etc.

Based on just my experience, I get less subsequent knee pain when I do hard rides with a high cadence (95+ RPM), than on the few times I have tried to grind it out using lower cadence. For example, I tried some workouts recommended to me to build leg strength, where I would do tempo riding for 1-2 hours targeting a gear that forced me to spin at 70-80 RPM. Also tried some standing start sprints in a 53+14 (also recommended to me). Inevitably my knee would ache for a couple of days afterwards. However, on club rides where I go even harder than this, so long as I keep my cadence very high and use lower gears, my knee feels much better.

I am not a medical doctor or physical therapist, so I can't recommend this. But, it works for me and appears to be consistent with what I have read.

SethOK

Until this year I didn't pay much attention to cadence. This year I've focused on keeping it 90+ as much as possible and I've noticed a huge increases in my ability to sustain hard efforts as well as my climbing ability.