so, tonight i installed my rear honjo fender, and had to add a link to my chain, which kicked my wheel waaay the hell back in my dropouts which i am not a fan of...

so in an effort to still have tire clearance, but not have my rear wheel too far away, i tried a 1/8" surly 17T cog instead of my 16T no-name cog. first of all, it didn't go on smoothly (STUPID ISO THREADS!). then i got it on, threaded the lockring on put it on the bike, proceeded to test it by hand. so i cranked on it forward to tighten it up, noticed a tiny little space between the cog and the lockring, so i cranked on it in reverse and sure enough...cog...slippage. so i cranked it forward again, took the wheel off, tightened up the lockring, put it back on the bike, tested again, same deal.

i wound up putting the trusty 16T cog on there that i've had on there for the last four years and rode home.

the fender looks super hot, i didn't put the front one on, so i can still put the bike on the bus rack when i go see torrin next week. i think i'll use as a rear on one of my other bikes. i'll post pics some other time. i might take a few at work tomorrow to put on the shop website.

so i guess my question would be this: does anyone else have a problem with any cog not being wide enough to contact the lockring when everything is all assembled? i thought about using a cassette spacer behind the cog, but i didn't feel like digging around for a super narrow one.

To sum it all up in one word. Cramerotti.

cramerotti/schmamerotti.

that bike isn't drilled for a rear brake (which i'm not saying is a bad thing)...but in the event that i want to put a rear fender on (which i would!) i'd be SOL. you'll be singin' a different tune when you see my pink baby with the bling fender next week.

Bling Schming, unless you have spinners, I don't care!

but...that's not the point of this thread!

i seriously want to know what other people do about getting cogs to fit on their phils.

I know that the Phil lockring that I'm using on my Surly hub is a lot wider than the DuraAce on the other side - it still has more threads, and kind of looks like it's not screwed on all the way. But it's on there tight, so I don't know if that helps. What kind of lockring are you using?

phil lockring on phil hub. generic QBP cog.

the problem is that when the cog is on all the way, there's still like, .5mm of cog thread between the lockring and the cog. so the surly cog can pretty much do 1/4 turn on it's threads. no problem with the lockring. big problem with the cog not being wide enough. i wonder if the DA cogs are wider....

the DA lockrings are super thin. i'm thinking about ordering up a couple of paul lockrings to replace both the phil and the DA.

surly cogs are thinner than DA cogs. there was a rumor that QBP was redesigning them to be a bit wider, but i haven't heard anything conclusive...

well, the 16T 3/32" cog that's on the bike now is a QBP, and it's definitely wider than the surly. i don't think QBP is still doing their own line of cogs anymore...i wonder if i can get an EAI cog through somewhere my shop deals with...

I've heard of Surly's having this problem. I thought they fixed it this model year though...

Your lock ring shouldn't be a problem. I mean it bottoms out on the threads and that's it. It's up to the cog to be wide enough to meet it. FWIW, I've been real happy with my DA cog and ring.

word. i don't blame the lockring. i'm just thinking about getting the paul's one because it's wider. although i didn't get bloody knuckles tonight while mucking about with it.

Right. I've never used a Surly cog, but I have heard (I think it must be from this forum) that the Surlys are a little thinner. Surly says on their website that they have redesigned their new cogs. I bet it's a cog issue. Do you have a caliper to measure the two with?

aren't phil hubs threaded to take 33.5 x 24 tpi lockrings and pauls threaded for 1.29 x 24 tpi lockrings? or does paul make lockrings with both thread pitches? anyways, i know for a fact that surly cogs are thinner. a friend was talking to the surly folks at interbike and they said their newer cogs will be tougher and more of the standard thickness. he said the new cogs are black like eai, d-a, etc. have you tried using one of those 1mm thick bmx freewheel spacers before putting the cog on?

If you're gonna use a Surly cog, you need a spacer - half a mil should do it. I ran into the exact same issue at the shop this week with a Surly/Phil combo. As far as I know, you can only get EAI cogs from EAI in California. Look up the number in Bike-a-Log if you have it. We are screwed 'cause another shop in town has an exclusive on their cogs for another year, so we can't get any. Phil and White Industries are both developing fixed cogs, but neither has them ready yet. That leaves Surly as our only option for larger size cogs, and I've yet to see one of their new improved thicker ones

As for lockrings on a Phil, I'm pretty sure you have only two options - Campagnolo or Phil.

Oh, and I did a sharp looking fender install on my track frame with no rear brake drilling.

Cramerotti.

Oh yeah, SOMA makes larger sized cogs too, but I've got one of their 15's and it's slightly eccentric which makes for a pretty annoying slack/tight/slack chain.

Please don't use Surly (ISO) cogs on our hubs. We have seen about 8 stripped hubs in the last two year, 6 with Surly and 2 with Soma. Surly cogs do not engage enough thread and the ISO threads do not match up which is why it was rough going on. I have also heard they are redesigning them, just don't know when.
Soma cogs are ISO also and tend to seize, something to do with the plating they use. Plating will also tend to "pool" in the valley of the threads so it will round off our nice threads even more than others.

DA cogs are the best bet that we have played with.
Ours will be available in about two months.
If anyone has any questions on the subject feel free to email me at brent at phil wood dot com.

Thanks,
Brent

thanks, brent!

i won't try any more surly cogs. have i completely effed the threads on my hub now? or will it be fine to ride? i'd hate to have to buy a whole new hub, especially 'cause my shop can't get 'em.

The oracle speaks

My current EAI cog works nicely on the phil and I have run DA cogs too. Phils use a campy threaded lockring; and IMO the phil lockrings are head and shoulders above the campy lockrings. If I had campy hubs I would still use a phil lockring. I have some no-name hubs (I think they are gipemme) that use a campy lockring thread and I use a phil lockring on those too.

The new surly catalog claims that their new cogs are wider. The problem should be fixed for 05. EAI and DA cogs are the best. EAI comes in more sizes, DA is cheaper.

i thought QBP owned surly. maybe i'm wrong (happens a lot), but i thought they did...

they might, but i don't think they do. i could be wrong as well. but then...why does my "no-name" cog work so gosh darn well? i'm sure it isn't a DA cog, and it looks almost exactly like a surly cog, but it threads on super smooth. i dunno...i got it five years ago, maybe surly changed their design, or maybe it's some brand that doesn't make cogs anymore...

QBP does own Surly, but it doesn't mean that they necessarily share product design. If they did, there'd be no point of having a separate brand identity for Surly.

Brent has the issue nailed with regards to threading per se -- don't put ISO threaded cogs on a Phil hub. But as for the question of how wide the cog flange is, I've pulled out my box of cogs (26 at last count) and found that even within one brand, there's 1-2 millimeters of difference in width. I found this with Dura Ace, with EAI, and with Campy. They tended either to fit properly or to be a little bit thin, in which case a bottom bracket spacer is just what you need (they come in all kinds of thicknesses from about .5 mm to 3 or 4 mm). You definitely don't want to have slack for the cog, because if you spin the cog loose and it then comes up against the lockring, it's the perfect scenario for stripping threads. There's no recovering a hub after that -- it's kaput. I also checked a number of Phil hubs I have and found almost 1 mm difference in width of the BSC threaded portion, which might exacerbate a problem from time to time, but the cog is the main culprit. The EAI cogs, by the way, were not perfect but were at least the most consistent. I've found they outperform everything else out there (except of course, Brent, the new Phil cogs that haven't arrived yet).

let's revist this thread!
so Surly cogs are still a no-go? Mainly Dura Ace is the way to go? bummer i cna't get antyhing about 16T out of the QBP

There was another thread about this sometime way back. Surly redesigned their cogs (and I think have redesigned them yet again), and as such, they were much improved.

DA cogs come in 16t (largest size). I don't know if they're in QBP or not but they're really easy to find.