pray tell: "slack"
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pray tell: "slack"
What exactly are you kids talking about? "those forks look a bit slack" etc.
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Typically slack refers to headtube angle (and possibly seatube angle). The less slack/steeper headtube angle means twitcher/more responsive steering. Slack angles mean more stable/less responsive steering.
I would never call a fork itself "slack." Slack typically implies a fair amount of trail - distance between the steering axis intersects with the ground, and the contact patch made by the wheel (directly under the axle) - which is the more stable/less responsive steering situation.
There is tons on trail and bicycle handling, but if my explaination confused you, check out Josh Putnam's explaination.
I would never call a fork itself "slack." Slack typically implies a fair amount of trail - distance between the steering axis intersects with the ground, and the contact patch made by the wheel (directly under the axle) - which is the more stable/less responsive steering situation.
There is tons on trail and bicycle handling, but if my explaination confused you, check out Josh Putnam's explaination.
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Originally Posted by somebodies
What exactly are you kids talking about? "those forks look a bit slack" etc.
Obviously frame builders know this and are designing frames within acceptable and practical limits. It's still risky to put too much stock in a single steering geometry spec, be it headtube angle, fork rake or trail as it is the combination of these 3 (oh, and wheel base I suppose) that determin the steering properties of a given frame.
Track bikes are generally thought of as twitchy/fast/responsive in their steering and while they almost always have steeper headtube angles than their road counterparts, they also have more trail and less rake and it's this combination that really defines the steering properties. Interestingly, the fast/responsive steering that this geometry is associated with really only occurs at low speeds. The higher the speed the more stable (less twitchy) a track bike is. The opposite is true for a long, slack touring frame.
I for one would really like to 'hear' the opinions of some of our resident frame builders on this topic.
Take care...
Jim
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angle of the dangle
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Jimv wrote:
"Track bikes are generally thought of as twitchy/fast/responsive in their steering and while they almost always have steeper headtube angles than their road counterparts, they also have more trail and less rake and it's this combination that really defines the steering properties. Interestingly, the fast/responsive steering that this geometry is associated with really only occurs at low speeds. The higher the speed the more stable (less twitchy) a track bike is. The opposite is true for a long, slack touring frame."
I didn't know that, but it kinda makes sense.
I love the way my Pista handles at slow speeds, and it surprises me that it seems to get more stable with speed.
I'd like to hear that confirmed and explained a little more.
"Track bikes are generally thought of as twitchy/fast/responsive in their steering and while they almost always have steeper headtube angles than their road counterparts, they also have more trail and less rake and it's this combination that really defines the steering properties. Interestingly, the fast/responsive steering that this geometry is associated with really only occurs at low speeds. The higher the speed the more stable (less twitchy) a track bike is. The opposite is true for a long, slack touring frame."
I didn't know that, but it kinda makes sense.
I love the way my Pista handles at slow speeds, and it surprises me that it seems to get more stable with speed.
I'd like to hear that confirmed and explained a little more.
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Originally Posted by Ken Cox
Jimv wrote:
"Track bikes are generally thought of as twitchy/fast/responsive in their steering and while they almost always have steeper headtube angles than their road counterparts, they also have more trail and less rake and it's this combination that really defines the steering properties. Interestingly, the fast/responsive steering that this geometry is associated with really only occurs at low speeds. The higher the speed the more stable (less twitchy) a track bike is. The opposite is true for a long, slack touring frame."
I didn't know that, but it kinda makes sense.
I love the way my Pista handles at slow speeds, and it surprises me that it seems to get more stable with speed.
I'd like to hear that confirmed and explained a little more.
"Track bikes are generally thought of as twitchy/fast/responsive in their steering and while they almost always have steeper headtube angles than their road counterparts, they also have more trail and less rake and it's this combination that really defines the steering properties. Interestingly, the fast/responsive steering that this geometry is associated with really only occurs at low speeds. The higher the speed the more stable (less twitchy) a track bike is. The opposite is true for a long, slack touring frame."
I didn't know that, but it kinda makes sense.
I love the way my Pista handles at slow speeds, and it surprises me that it seems to get more stable with speed.
I'd like to hear that confirmed and explained a little more.
Jim
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Originally Posted by jimv
Track bikes are generally thought of as twitchy/fast/responsive in their steering and while they almost always have steeper headtube angles than their road counterparts, they also have more trail and less rake and it's this combination that really defines the steering properties.
Run some geometry numbers, I think you'll find that track bikes have less trail.
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Originally Posted by Smorgasbord
Are you sure track bikes have both a steeper headtube angle AND more trail? A steeper headtube = less trail. Despite less rake, track bikes typically have less trail than road bikes - due to their steeper headtube angles.
Run some geometry numbers, I think you'll find that track bikes have less trail.
Run some geometry numbers, I think you'll find that track bikes have less trail.
Thanks and take care...
Jim
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Originally Posted by Ken Cox
Jimv wrote:
"Track bikes are generally thought of as twitchy/fast/responsive in their steering and while they almost always have steeper headtube angles than their road counterparts, they also have more trail and less rake and it's this combination that really defines the steering properties. Interestingly, the fast/responsive steering that this geometry is associated with really only occurs at low speeds. The higher the speed the more stable (less twitchy) a track bike is. The opposite is true for a long, slack touring frame."
I didn't know that, but it kinda makes sense.
I love the way my Pista handles at slow speeds, and it surprises me that it seems to get more stable with speed.
I'd like to hear that confirmed and explained a little more.
"Track bikes are generally thought of as twitchy/fast/responsive in their steering and while they almost always have steeper headtube angles than their road counterparts, they also have more trail and less rake and it's this combination that really defines the steering properties. Interestingly, the fast/responsive steering that this geometry is associated with really only occurs at low speeds. The higher the speed the more stable (less twitchy) a track bike is. The opposite is true for a long, slack touring frame."
I didn't know that, but it kinda makes sense.
I love the way my Pista handles at slow speeds, and it surprises me that it seems to get more stable with speed.
I'd like to hear that confirmed and explained a little more.
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Originally Posted by cicadashell
but i can't imagine any sort of physical reason why, if you had two bicycles with the same rotational inertia in their wheels, and one (the "long, slack touring frame") had more caster than the other, that the one with more caster would be less stable. unless wheelbase plays a role, that is.
Last edited by Smorgasbord; 05-10-05 at 10:32 PM.