Dolface wrote:

"which part don't you understand, why a gan well pro costs more than a cinelli?"

Yes.

I have no experience with Cinelli, except what I have read on this forum.
People seem to speak very highly of Cinelli products.
Since I perceive lugged frames as labor intensive, I would have expected a lugged Cinelli frameset to have cost more than $975.
I'd like to know where in my mind to file Cinelli in terms of quality.

But this brings up the whole family of lugged steel track frames, from Bob Jackson, to Mercian, to Cinelli, to Gan Well Pro, to Nagasawa.

How much difference does the rider feel between these framesets, which have a $3000 price spread between them?
In which cases does one pay for a name, in which cases does one pay for aesthetics and glitter, and in which cases does one pay for a refined and fast ride?

Based on my present understanding, I see a custom Mercian frameset, delivered for less than $1000, as the value point.
By value point, I mean the point where quality and price cross, and one gets the most return for his dollar.
Beyond the value point, it seems to me that a person pays more and more for smaller amounts of improvement, until the last tiny increment of improvement costs a fortune.

Regarding the Mercian frameset, Mercian tells me if I will send them my measurements, a picture of me on my present ride, and a commentary about how I would like my Mercian to handle, they will design a lugged frame, open-hearth braze it, paint it the color of my choice and outline the lugs, and ship it to me for $1000.
Bob Jackson will do pretty much the same thing for just about the same amount of money.

I'd like to put all this in perspective.
It would help to see it through other people's eyes.

Thanks, I know :p I've got a keirin frame. Some friends recently got an EAI hook-up at their shop, so i'll be able to get some stuff wholesale. WEEEEEEEEEE!

The keirin bikes are made by smaller builders. Bob Jackson's used to be a lot more expensive, but the company got bigger. And if if means anything to you, Bob Jackson no longer builds frames. He died a few years ago. It all depends on who you want building your frame. Do you want a craftsman that's been doing it for years or some guy that works in a frame factory?

Taras0000 wrote:

"Do you want a craftsman that's been doing it for years or some guy that works in a frame factory?"

How does one tell the difference?
Don't the Nagasawa and Gan Well Pro artisans work in a frame factory?

Both Bob Jackson and Mercian stress that one man builds each frame, and their craftsmen free-hand braze, which means each tube gets brazed in place singly and allowed to cool before brazing a new tube; as opposed to putting all the tubes in a jig at the same time and brazing them.

http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/craft.asp

http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/factory.php

Reading the description of the fabricating process on both sites sounds and looks very much like the process Jon Kendziera shows in the construction photo-essay on his site, except Mercian open-forge brazes as opposed to torch-brazing:

http://jonnycycles.com/

Mercian, Bob Jackson and Jon Kendziera will make a custom frame to fit me and my riding style.
Mercian and Bob Jackson will do this, delivered, for about $1000.
I think Jon Kendziera costs a little more.
What would a custom Gan Well Pro or Nagasawa cost, delivered, and would I feel the difference?

I don't ask the above as a challenge.
I've never ridden a high quality lugged steel frame.
Perhaps no one on this forum has, either.
But maybe someone has, and I'd like to hear about it.

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From the Bob Jackson site:

"Frames can be either Jig built or Free built. Jig built is best used for mass producing low cost frames, as it is the quickest way to produce a high volume in a short space of time. When built in a jig all the tube joins are done in one go and as the tubes are heated they expand, contracting when cooling down. Because this happens at different rates & each tube is clamped in a fixed position the frame becomes stressed & out of line. Once built the frame is then substantially tracked straight (a trade term for bent back in line). As a result a great deal of the latent strength & springiness of the tubing is lost forever.

"At Bob Jackson Cycles we free build our frames for the following reasons: When building free a great deal of skill is required due to the fact that the frame is held at one place at a time, with guides allowing the tube being joined to expand along its length, whilst staying perfectly in line. Each join is then allowed to cool thoroughly so as to ensure there is no stress on the frame, hence the term “No tension building”. Each join is done separately, from mitreing, to brazing, to cleaning & polishing, resulting in a frame that requires minimal or no tracking and uses the best qualities of the tubing, giving it that magical ride quality that only comes from a top quality steel frame.

"All steel tubes deteriorate if not heated correctly by between 5 & 15% dependant on the mix of metals in the tubeset. Savings of approximately 200F in temperature can be achieved by using silver braze rather than brass, this however is not cheap, silver braze costs 6 to 7 times more than brass.

"The way the heat is applied directly affects the frame strength and its durability. Sudden or very quick changes such as when building quickly or welding creates a sudden change in the crystal structure of the metal, leading to a rapid change in strength of the tubing & increasing the need for blow holes to allow gasses to escape from the frame. Blow holes may allow gasses out but also allow water in hence all Bob Jackson frames are built without blow holes & to ensure we can honour our 5 Year Guarantee all frames are built under no time or cost constraints."

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Should I believe the above?
The Mercian site says just about the same thing.

The average rider probably won't be able to tell the difference. To tell you the truth, there probably isn;t that much difference in the rides either. The same can also be said of a custom compared to an off the peg frame. Unless you have really weird dimensions, there really isn't much difference in fit. I've never seen or ridden a Mercian, so I can't comment on them. I have seen the old Jackson's and Nagasawa's and they are jewels. Mercian states that each frame is built by only one person. That can be fine and dandy, but do you know who the builder is? Have you seen their previous work? Do they have some sort of pedigree? I could give any person off the street the tools and the operating room, and make sure that they are the only person performing your brain surgery, but will you allow that? I would only get a custom frame built by someone who's work I have seen, and have talked to personally about what I want in my bike.

You may be paying for a name to a certain degree with some builders, but there are two reasons for that. Supply and demand (nothing wrong with that), and quality assurance (nothing wrong with that either). Just my thoughts.