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Wabi Classic frame issues

Old 03-19-18, 09:33 AM
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Point4ska
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Wabi Classic frame issues (resolved)

Has anyone ordered from Wabi recently and encountered issues? My BB shell threads had a lot of paint overspray, incorrectly aligned threads in the BB shell, and the rear triangle seems to be outside standard tolerances for alignment. Took them 2 months to ship my frame so when I finally got it I was pretty dismayed by all these issues. Can't mount any of my cranks as the NDS arm hits the chainstay. I emailed them a few days ago and am still awaiting a response.

EDIT: Got in touch with one of the owners and we have come to a resolution! I should mention he did offer to have the frame shipped back to Wabi, but we decided to just resolve it here with reimbursement as it cost both parties less money.

Last edited by Point4ska; 03-21-18 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 03-19-18, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Point4ska View Post
Has anyone ordered from Wabi recently and encountered issues? My BB shell threads had a lot of paint overspray, incorrectly aligned threads in the BB shell, and the rear triangle seems to be outside standard tolerances for alignment. Took them 2 months to ship my frame so when I finally got it I was pretty dismayed by all these issues. Can't mount any of my cranks as the NDS arm hits the chainstay. I emailed them a few days ago and am still awaiting a response.
Wow. Not good. I hope things get taken care of. What exactly is wrong with the rear triangle?
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Old 03-19-18, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by SquidPuppet View Post
Wow. Not good. I hope things get taken care of. What exactly is wrong with the rear triangle?
My measurements aren't 100% accurate as I'd like to wait until Wabi responds before I pay a LBS to use their alignment gauge, but from what I gather the rear triangle is shifted 5 or 6 mm outside of what's standard. I measured my chainline to be correct (42mm) and there is a difference in clearance for the crank arms as the drive side is able to just barely clear the chainstay but the non drive side smacks right into it. The track end spacing seems off as well as they measure 125mm instead of 120mm.
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Old 03-19-18, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Point4ska View Post
My measurements aren't 100% accurate as I'd like to wait until Wabi responds before I pay a LBS to use their alignment gauge, but from what I gather the rear triangle is shifted 5 or 6 mm outside of what's standard. I measured my chainline to be correct (42mm) and there is a difference in clearance for the crank arms as the drive side is able to just barely clear the chainstay but the non drive side smacks right into it. The track end spacing seems off as well as they measure 125mm instead of 120mm.
Yikes.

If you suspect that the chain/seat stays are shifted off to one side or the other (off center) you can check that yourself to confirm and to be prepared for communication with Wabi. Are you familiar with the string method? Scroll down a bit.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html
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Old 03-19-18, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by SquidPuppet View Post
Yikes.

If you suspect that the chain/seat stays are shifted off to one side or the other (off center) you can check that yourself to confirm and to be prepared for communication with Wabi. Are you familiar with the string method? Scroll down a bit.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html
Thanks for the tip. The string method is what I used to measure, and the sides did not match.
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Old 03-19-18, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Point4ska View Post
Thanks for the tip. The string method is what I used to measure, and the sides did not match.

Gotcha. Well that sucks. So it looks like the NDS is the culprit since the crank arm is hitting and the dropouts are at 125. Frames can get squashed in shipping, but it's kind of impossible to spread them. You've got a strong position that it left Wabi like that.

I'm interested in seeing how this plays out, so I hope you post here again regarding how it was resolved.
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Old 03-19-18, 10:31 AM
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Please do post back throughout this issue. I'm sure most of us are curious to see how this all gets managed by Wabi. Sorry about your new bike.
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Old 03-19-18, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by SquidPuppet View Post
Gotcha. Well that sucks. So it looks like the NDS is the culprit since the crank arm is hitting and the dropouts are at 125. Frames can get squashed in shipping, but it's kind of impossible to spread them. You've got a strong position that it left Wabi like that.

I'm interested in seeing how this plays out, so I hope you post here again regarding how it was resolved.
That's what I was thinking. Thanks for the responses, I will be sure to post back.
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Old 03-19-18, 10:44 AM
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Wow, this is the kind of problem I might expect from bikesdirect, but not with Wabi. In fact, the dropouts on my Kilo WT were spaced at 125mm, but I was able to coldset them back to 121mm and add a 1mm spacer to my hub axle to fix the problem. In case you wonder how this can happen, the frame is welded in a jig, but if the tubing isn’t heated evenly, you can get thermal strain buildup, and as soon as the frame is removed from the jig, the stays can spring apart changing the dropout spacing.
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Old 03-19-18, 11:14 AM
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If it were me, I wouldn't get too bent out of shape re: the track end spacing as cold setting is easy and commonly done. Bigger issue is the cranks. 5 mm out at the hub makes less than half that at the crank end. If the left crank is hitting, that isn't the chainstay unless it is way off. I'd do some research and see if the bottom bracket is square with the frame.

I have never considered how to check this so I am shooting from the hip here, but I would first lay a straight edge along the BB shell face (or better, the face of the cup of a non-sealed bottom bracket) and see how far from the head tube it is. (This is approximate at best. The BB shell may well not be faced or have uneven paint on it. A very small amount of play in between the cup and shell would make a large difference at the head tube.

Another approach: put in a bottom bracket; cartridge or no doesn't matter. Thread a long bolt into the axle instead of the short crank bolt. Now you should be able to use a square to see if the bolt is at a true right angle to the frame. (Not knowing what type square you have, I am not going to suggest an approach. Be aware that if you lay the square over any two tubes on the frame,you will have a little error since most are slightly different diameters. Maybe look down on the frame, lay the square along the top tube and sight along it to see if the BB bolts is parallel to it.) This does assume the drilling of the crank bolt is straight. An easy way to check that would be to rotate the spindle for the other side and look for wobble of the bolt. You could still use it even with wobble. Set up your square and see to it that the variation with the bolt is the same but in the other direction after you rotate the spindle 180 degrees.

BB not being square to the rest of the frame would be a complete no-go for me under any circumstances.

Again, all this is completely shooting from the hip and is just ideas. Best approach is probably one I haven't thought of yet.

Ben
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Old 03-19-18, 03:07 PM
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re: Paint overspray, are you sure it's not the ED coating that they add inside the frame? The coating looks like a thin black powder coat, but shouldn't be enough to mess with the BB threads.

Sounds like you got a bunk frame. No doubt they'll swap it out for you, but I'd be more worried for Wabi if they got an entire batch from the factory in this condition.
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Old 03-19-18, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Scottybigs View Post
re: Paint overspray, are you sure it's not the ED coating that they add inside the frame? The coating looks like a thin black powder coat, but shouldn't be enough to mess with the BB threads.
I considered something like that, but I got a custom colour and the overspray matched the colour. A friend who ordered from the same batch had the same issue, luckily chasing was able to solve it.

Originally Posted by Scottybigs View Post
Sounds like you got a bunk frame. No doubt they'll swap it out for you, but I'd be more worried for Wabi if they got an entire batch from the factory in this condition.
I hope so, they've been responding to my friend's emails pretty quickly in the last few days but it's been almost 4 days and I haven't heard back.
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Old 03-20-18, 07:11 AM
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Finally received a response after sending a follow up email this morning. I have to say I am rather disappointed.

This doesn’t occur with our crank sets on a Classic frame. The only solution is to use a spacer on the non-drive side or a 107mm bottom bracket.
The cranksets I have tried either use a 109mm BB (DA 7600 and Sugino 75 which many builds on pedalroom use) or an external BB so I'm not sure where 107mm BB came from. A spacer is a potential solution for clearance, but would throw off my chainline and does not address the core of the problem. My issue has apparently been passed on to another tech, but the fact that they did not address at all the fact that the threads were incorrectly tapped and that the rear triangle came misaligned is worrying.
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Old 03-20-18, 07:39 AM
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What a crock ! That’s what happens when you sell a good company to a bunch of Okies.
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Old 03-20-18, 08:09 AM
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Is there no return policy that would allow you to send the frame back (like withing 60 days etc.)? Or is it cancelled out because you got custom paint?

Yea you could take the frame to a competent LBS that knows steel to re-align it, but that shouldn't come out of your pocket.
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Old 03-20-18, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Scottybigs View Post
Is there no return policy that would allow you to send the frame back (like withing 60 days etc.)? Or is it cancelled out because you got custom paint?

Yea you could take the frame to a competent LBS that knows steel to re-align it, but that shouldn't come out of your pocket.
There's a 5 year warranty covering defects in material and worksmanship and a 30 day return policy, but they seem to not be acknowledging the issues I have. I can only imply because their response was so curt, and most of my correspondence was not addressed.
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Old 03-20-18, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by TejanoTrackie View Post
What a crock ! That’s what happens when you sell a good company to a bunch of Okies.
Presumably Richard is still involved in the company, but who knows if that's true.
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Old 03-20-18, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Point4ska View Post
Presumably Richard is still involved in the company, but who knows if that's true.
I think Richard is now just acting as a “consultant”, but has no control or authority over company management. I doubt he has any involvement in day to day operations. It sounds like the person(s) who contacted you are pretty clueless.
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Old 03-20-18, 09:10 AM
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Just pick up the phone and call them. I'm sure they will sort it out eventually, but their digital customer service isn't as good as it used to be when you could just send an email to Richard and he would respond the same day.
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Old 03-20-18, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
Just pick up the phone and call them. I'm sure they will sort it out eventually, but their digital customer service isn't as good as it used to be when you could just send an email to Richard and he would respond the same day.
I'm not in the US so long distance charges and timezone differences make it a bit difficult to give them a call.
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Old 03-20-18, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Point4ska View Post
I'm not in the US so long distance charges and timezone differences make it a bit difficult to give them a call.
That's one of the lamest excuses I have ever heard. Toronto is one hour different than Oklahoma and you can make unlimited skype to landline calls from Canada to the US for $3/month. Have them call you back if you're worried about the three bucks.
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Old 03-20-18, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
That's one of the lamest excuses I have ever heard. Toronto is one hour different than Oklahoma and you can make unlimited skype to landline calls from Canada to the US for $3/month. Have them call you back if you're worried about the three bucks.
I haven't used skype in ages, did not know you could make phone calls long distance with it to non skype numbers. In any case there is no need to get apprehensive. The 1 hour time difference makes it so that their working hours are bracketed by mine in addition to other responsibilities it means I don't have frequent access to my phone. I generally work 7 days a week and cannot take calls while at work but can use email which is why I opted for that.
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Old 03-20-18, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Point4ska View Post
In any case there is no need to get apprehensive.
Eh?

Last edited by Scrodzilla; 03-20-18 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 03-20-18, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Point4ska View Post
Finally received a response after sending a follow up email this morning. I have to say I am rather disappointed.



The cranksets I have tried either use a 109mm BB (DA 7600 and Sugino 75 which many builds on pedalroom use) or an external BB so I'm not sure where 107mm BB came from. A spacer is a potential solution for clearance, but would throw off my chainline and does not address the core of the problem. My issue has apparently been passed on to another tech, but the fact that they did not address at all the fact that the threads were incorrectly tapped and that the rear triangle came misaligned is worrying.
I know you don't want to hear this, and I know you shouldn't have to do it, but fixing the rear triangle is really easy. You don't need and LBS or any special tools, and it can be done without harming the paint.

What is wonky with the BB threading? I doubt the threading is causing the crank arm issue. One reason is that you know that the triangle is off center. The other reason is that Wabis are know for having issues with some cranks. IIRC the Omniums will make contact too.
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Old 03-20-18, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by SquidPuppet View Post
I know you don't want to hear this, and I know you shouldn't have to do it, but fixing the rear triangle is really easy. You don't need and LBS or any special tools, and it can be done without harming the paint.

What is wonky with the BB threading? I doubt the threading is causing the crank arm issue. One reason is that you know that the triangle is off center. The other reason is that Wabis are know for having issues with some cranks. IIRC the Omniums will make contact too.

Yeah, I'm not looking to get unreasonable or anything. What I was told by my shop is that the non drive side threading does not align with the drive side, this has been since solved as they were able to run a tap and straighten it out. I deliberately avoided omniums to provide clearance, but assumed Sugino 75s or DA 7600s would fit given all the builds. I also tried a set of external suginos, but I expected those not to fit as they require similar clearance as omniums.


I just don't really feel comfortable doing it myself. I would be happy if they simply reimbursed the cost of having the threads fixed and the triangle re-aligned (which is less than the cost of mailing it back to wabi). Ultimately it's the culmination of many small issues that have me frustrated. Missing the promised delivery by a mile without being notified until I reached out, missing headset piece, messy paint job, sloppily tapped threads, and spread triangle.

I will try to reach out to them by phone as that seems to be the preferred method of contact, and hopefully we can reach a solution that is amenable to both parties.

Last edited by Point4ska; 03-20-18 at 10:29 AM.
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