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-   -   I'm torn on which to do first. (https://www.bikeforums.net/singlespeed-fixed-gear/1155102-im-torn-do-first.html)

ryan_rides 09-10-18 02:56 PM
I'm torn on which to do first.
 
Drivetrain/Wheels upgrades.
Do I buy a new cog first or cog and chain ring first? Or do I buy an entire crankset and cog together? I want to go to a higher hearing both cog and chain ring and I'm thinking 16/50 (currently 15/48). I want to buy new wheels because mine are garbage and old (stock Aventon push rear wheel and weinman dp18 front). Help me make a decision. In thinking of getting eai deluxe cog and a fsa 50 chain ring.

seamuis 09-10-18 03:00 PM
Wheels are always the best upgrade, period. A quality wheelset will always transform the ride on any bike. Drivetrain upgrades much less so. The real question here is what are the parts that make up your drivetrain and is any part of your drivetrain giving you issues? And what is your current wheelset comprise of and what are you considering upgrading to. Without more specific info, we can’t really be helpful beyond what i said in my first sentence.

seau grateau 09-10-18 03:35 PM
^^ Yup. Assuming your drivetrain parts are all in good working condition, wheels are the better upgrade by far.

ryan_rides 09-10-18 05:19 PM
My wheels are:
stock aventon push rear (aventon branded formula hub)
Weinman dp18 front (formula hub)
cranks are stock aventon push crank arms with a chain ring from omniums

seamuis 09-10-18 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by ryan_rides (Post 20558040)
My wheels are:
stock aventon push rear (aventon branded formula hub)
Weinman dp18 front (formula hub)
cranks are stock aventon push crank arms with a chain ring from omniums
form what I can glean over at the aventon website, none of your parts are ‘bad’. Sealed bearing hubs, forged crankset, etc. The weinmann front rim is good quality. Not so sure about that typical deep 30mm rear. Very heavy. Upgrading your cog won’t make a difference. Neither will your chain or chainring. If you’re really mashing, A stiffer crank would be a good investment. A better bottom bracket to go with it. But based on what you have, I would recommend you spend your money on a new wheelset. And if you’re really looking for performance upgrade, buy a new set of tires to go with it. Worry about the drivetrain later. Do you have anything specific in mind for a wheelset? Unless you’re actually trying to race on a track/velodrome I would avoid all ‘aero’ rims, unless you can afford a really expensive set like zipp/shimano etc. The lighter your wheelset the bigger your overall performance gain. Avoid wasting money by buying any wheelset solely based on looks/style. If that’s the reason behind your desire for upgrades, you’re wasting your own time and money. If that’s the case, my advice would be to save your money altogether and just keep riding what you’ve got. My bike runs hplusson tb14’s laced 4x to 36h DA 7600’s with Hoshi double butted spokes. Not ‘aero’ but lightweight and very strong. Something along these lines is what I’d recommend, especially for reliability on the street.

ryan_rides 09-10-18 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by seamuis (Post 20558184)

form what I can glean over at the aventon website, none of your parts are ‘bad’. Sealed bearing hubs, forged crankset, etc. The weinmann front rim is good quality. Not so sure about that typical deep 30mm rear. Very heavy. Upgrading your cog won’t make a difference. Neither will your chain or chainring. If you’re really mashing, A stiffer crank would be a good investment. A better bottom bracket to go with it. But based on what you have, I would recommend you spend your money on a new wheelset. And if you’re really looking for performance upgrade, buy a new set of tires to go with it. Worry about the drivetrain later. Do you have anything specific in mind for a wheelset? Unless you’re actually trying to race on a track/velodrome I would avoid all ‘aero’ rims, unless you can afford a really expensive set like zipp/shimano etc. The lighter your wheelset the bigger your overall performance gain. Avoid wasting money by buying any wheelset solely based on looks/style. If that’s the reason behind your desire for upgrades, you’re wasting your own time and money. If that’s the case, my advice would be to save your money altogether and just keep riding what you’ve got. My bike runs hplusson tb14’s laced 4x to 36h DA 7600’s with Hoshi double butted spokes. Not ‘aero’ but lightweight and very strong. Something along these lines is what I’d recommend, especially for reliability on the street.
my wheels and drivetrain, apart from my chain, are 1-2 years old. I don't care much about looks. I want strong/stuff wheels with less rolling resistance and also wider rims. Aventon's cranks are garbage compared to omniums which I've rode before on my previous bike (which was ran over). I just want a smooth drive train because I love going fast. The more efficient my power transfer can be the better. I can't afford zipps. I'm looking at hplus sons laced to gran comp hubs so budget is like $300 for wheels. Obviously I would love to have another set of omniums given that they're simple to maintain and stuff but I still want to go to a higher gear of 16/50

seau grateau 09-10-18 06:59 PM
50x16 is lower than 48x15.

ryan_rides 09-10-18 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by seau grateau (Post 20558261)
50x16 is lower than 48x15.
what do you mean? Gear inches? I'm saying strictly number of teeth. The smaller your cog is, the worse it is for your chain/drive train.

seau grateau 09-10-18 07:08 PM
Ok.

ryan_rides 09-10-18 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by seau grateau (Post 20558279)
Ok.
Should I go to a 51t chain ring? To keep a similar feel? I've only ever ridden 14/48 and 15/48. Actually, what I haven't done yet is find out what the max chain ring I can have is.

seamuis 09-10-18 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by ryan_rides (Post 20558254)
my wheels and drivetrain, apart from my chain, are 1-2 years old. I don't care much about looks. I want strong/stuff wheels with less rolling resistance and also wider rims. Aventon's cranks are garbage compared to omniums which I've rode before on my previous bike (which was ran over). I just want a smooth drive train because I love going fast. The more efficient my power transfer can be the better. I can't afford zipps. I'm looking at hplus sons laced to gran comp hubs so budget is like $300 for wheels. Obviously I would love to have another set of omniums given that they're simple to maintain and stuff but I still want to go to a higher gear of 16/50
less rolling resistance is all about your tires mate, not your rims or hubs. My DA 7400 cranks are 32 years old. 🙃 sons and gran compe hubs is a good solid choice (I assume you’re not talking about the gran compe pros, based on your budget) I see nothing wrong with that upgrade. If you want better power transfer than yea a better crank is the ticket. I’m assuming you’re running 25mm tires? 50:16 would give you about 83 GI. If you want a smoothest possible drivetrain with reduced fiction, you need to go bigger. Period. Larger sprockets=More efficient. That comes at a cost of weight though, at least when you’re running 1/8”. Something like a 53:17 or 55:18 would be around the same GI. When I want to put power down I run 61:19 (87 GI) & 61:22 (75 GI) for regular riding.

seau grateau 09-10-18 07:32 PM
The whole larger sprockets for less wear thing is mostly malarkey in my opinion (theoretically valid but practically insignificant), so I wouldn't really recommend anything there. I still think wheels are the way to go.

seamuis 09-10-18 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by ryan_rides (Post 20558275)
what do you mean? Gear inches? I'm saying strictly number of teeth. The smaller your cog is, the worse it is for your chain/drive train.
he’s saying that your current ratio is heavier than the one you’re saying you want to switch to. 85 GI to 83 GI.

seamuis 09-10-18 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by seau grateau (Post 20558323)
The whole larger sprockets for less wear thing is mostly malarkey in my opinion (theoretically valid but practically insignificant), so I wouldn't really recommend anything there. I still think wheels are the way to go.
your opinion is wrong, practically. But I agree about the wheels.

hardboiled718 09-10-18 07:42 PM
moving up 1 tooth from a 15 to 16 cog will not show any significant difference in the life of the cog, they will both wear fairly equally. assuming you get a decent cog, you'll be replacing other parts long before it's time to get a new cog.

Broctoon 09-10-18 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by seau grateau (Post 20558323)
The whole larger sprockets for less wear thing is mostly malarkey in my opinion (theoretically valid but practically insignificant)
This is my belief, too. Larger gears are smoother/more efficient/longer wearing in the same way that the right pair of shoes will give an aerodynamic advantage. It's mathematically true, but in actual practice there's too little difference for 99% of riders to ever notice.

ryan_rides 09-10-18 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by seamuis (Post 20558319)

less rolling resistance is all about your tires mate, not your rims or hubs. My DA 7400 cranks are 32 years old. 🙃 sons and gran compe hubs is a good solid choice (I assume you’re not talking about the gran compe pros, based on your budget) I see nothing wrong with that upgrade. If you want better power transfer than yea a better crank is the ticket. I’m assuming you’re running 25mm tires? 50:16 would give you about 83 GI. If you want a smoothest possible drivetrain with reduced fiction, you need to go bigger. Period. Larger sprockets=More efficient. That comes at a cost of weight though, at least when you’re running 1/8”. Something like a 53:17 or 55:18 would be around the same GI. When I want to put power down I run 61:19 (87 GI) & 61:22 (75 GI) for regular riding.
Wheels and hubs are definitely a factor when it come to rolling resistance. Better bearings produce less rolling resistance and I found that out the day I test rode my friends s works tarmac with full etap and 60roval wheels. Its a while different world of smooth. Obviously nothing I can afford will give me that kind of performance but you get my point. I think the max chain ring size I can ride is 50, maybe a 51t

Bang0Bang00 09-10-18 10:29 PM
Ryan,

What's your crank arm length?
Do you live in a flat or hilly area?
Do you skid your rear wheel for breaking?
Are you aware of the benefits of prime number cogs on the rear (13,17,19) , assuming you do skid stop?
Do you use front and rear breaks?
What's the limiting factor in your front chairing?
Are you concerned about bike theft in your area?
Do you lock your bike outside ever/ often?
Are you already using a security bolt to secure the wheels?
Are you cable or U- knocking your wheels if not on security nuts?

seamuis 09-10-18 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by ryan_rides (Post 20558542)
Wheels and hubs are definitely a factor when it come to rolling resistance. Better bearings produce less rolling resistance and I found that out the day I test rode my friends s works tarmac with full etap and 60roval wheels. Its a while different world of smooth. Obviously nothing I can afford will give me that kind of performance but you get my point. I think the max chain ring size I can ride is 50, maybe a 51t
I assume you mean rims and hubs. Yes bearings contribute to resistance but unless your bearings are in terrible shape, then no, drag caused by bearings is not going to make any difference to the drag caused by the rubber on the road. Your rims, hubs and spokes create drag, but that’s aerodynamic wind resistance, not rolling resistance. In fact, just having the wrong tire pressure could create more resistance than your bearings. Perceived smoothness can come from a variety of factors, but smoothness perceived by the rider doesn’t necessarily equate directly to decreased rolling resistance. If 50 or 51 is the max, then certainly max it out, because there is practical efficiency to be had, especially from a larger rear sprocket. you need to figure out though, wether you’re more interested in acceleration (sprinting) or more interested in a higher sustained max speed. Because these require very different ratios, and you need to think carefully about the type of riding you’re going to be doing, before spending money. This, in my opinion just stresses my point that wheels (and behind that, tires) are the most important 1st upgrade to spend your money on.

seamuis 09-10-18 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by Broctoon (Post 20558420)
This is my belief, too. Larger gears are smoother/more efficient/longer wearing in the same way that the right pair of shoes will give an aerodynamic advantage. It's mathematically true, but in actual practice there's too little difference for 99% of riders to ever notice.
that’s the problem with your opinion here, though. 99% of riders couldn’t tell the difference between a cruiser tire and a TT tubular, 99% don’t even bother to keep their chain from rusting. We’re not talking about this 99% though, we’re talking about the OP, who specifically want to go faster and increase efficiency. For someone who specifically wants the smoothest, strongest, most effiecent drivetrain, especially with a fixed drivetrain and they want to be able to put down more torque, it makes a difference. If for nothing else than the basic principle of spreading torque load. That is increased efficiency. This has been understood for over a century. You’re welcome to your opinion, but for the 1% for whom this matters, it both mathematically and practically holds true. Cheers.

Mikefule 09-10-18 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by ryan_rides (Post 20557731)
Drivetrain/Wheels upgrades.
Do I buy a new cog first or cog and chain ring first? Or do I buy an entire crankset and cog together? I want to go to a higher hearing both cog and chain ring and I'm thinking 16/50 (currently 15/48). I want to buy new wheels because mine are garbage and old (stock Aventon push rear wheel and weinman dp18 front). Help me make a decision. In thinking of getting eai deluxe cog and a fsa 50 chain ring.
Proposed 50/16 = 3.125 (multiply this by wheel diameter to get gear inches.)
Current 48/15 = 3.2

3.125/3.2 = 0.977

Proposed ratio of 3.125 is 97.7% of current ratio of 3.2

Ths means that your proposed change of ratio will make about a 2.3% reduction in your ratio.

This is negligible: a marginal lowering of your gears. For comparison, on a derailleur bike, changing between 11t and 12t is roughly a 9% change.

In order of value for money that you will feel in the performance of your bike:

1) Get the best tyres you can afford.
2) Get the best wheels you can afford. Aero for going fast and steady speed, light for anything that will require bursts of acceleration such as city riding or hills. Aerodynamics become more important the faster you go. Weight is important every time you need to overcome inertia or gravity. What works in the context of a track or time trial may slow you down in the cut and thrust of a commute, for example.
3) Get a new chainset only if you can detect anything wrong with the one you have, or if it is incompatible with the ring size that you need.

In order of value for money that you will optimise your gear ratio:
1) Ask yourself whether you really need to change your ratio, or are you just tinkering for the fun of it.
2) 1 tooth on the sprocket makes more difference than 1 tooth on the chainring. At the sizes that you'e talking about (around 48/15) one tooth on the front makes 1/48 difference to your ratio (say 2%) and 1 tooth on the back makes 1/15 difference (say 7%). The effect of changing both for bigger, or both for smaller will be that the changes tend to cancel each other out.

Of course, change for change's sake, and pimping your ride is legitimate and we've all done it from time to time, but if you're looking at genuine performance gains and good value on a budget, you need to think about it realistically.

seau grateau 09-11-18 08:05 AM
Originally Posted by seamuis (Post 20558635)

that’s the problem with your opinion here, though. 99% of riders couldn’t tell the difference between a cruiser tire and a TT tubular, 99% don’t even bother to keep their chain from rusting. We’re not talking about this 99% though, we’re talking about the OP, who specifically want to go faster and increase efficiency. For someone who specifically wants the smoothest, strongest, most effiecent drivetrain, especially with a fixed drivetrain and they want to be able to put down more torque, it makes a difference. If for nothing else than the basic principle of spreading torque load. That is increased efficiency. This has been understood for over a century. You’re welcome to your opinion, but for the 1% for whom this matters, it both mathematically and practically holds true. Cheers.
Enjoy your placebo.

ryan_rides 09-11-18 11:43 AM
Originally Posted by Bang0Bang00 (Post 20558616)
Ryan,

What's your crank arm length?
Do you live in a flat or hilly area?
Do you skid your rear wheel for breaking?
Are you aware of the benefits of prime number cogs on the rear (13,17,19) , assuming you do skid stop?
Do you use front and rear breaks?
What's the limiting factor in your front chairing?
Are you concerned about bike theft in your area?
Do you lock your bike outside ever/ often?
Are you already using a security bolt to secure the wheels?
Are you cable or U- knocking your wheels if not on security nuts?
I live in South Florida. The only hills we have are bridges to go over the intercoastel or the highway/train tracks. I only skid of I have to. I don't run brakes although I did when I was a messenger. I'm guessing that prime/odd number cogs give more skid patches? I said before I believe I can ride a 50t maybe a 51t. I carry a U lock every where I go.

ryan_rides 09-11-18 11:51 AM
Originally Posted by Mikefule (Post 20558668)
Proposed 50/16 = 3.125 (multiply this by wheel diameter to get gear inches.)
Current 48/15 = 3.2

3.125/3.2 = 0.977

Proposed ratio of 3.125 is 97.7% of current ratio of 3.2

Ths means that your proposed change of ratio will make about a 2.3% reduction in your ratio.

This is negligible: a marginal lowering of your gears. For comparison, on a derailleur bike, changing between 11t and 12t is roughly a 9% change.

In order of value for money that you will feel in the performance of your bike:

1) Get the best tyres you can afford.
2) Get the best wheels you can afford. Aero for going fast and steady speed, light for anything that will require bursts of acceleration such as city riding or hills. Aerodynamics become more important the faster you go. Weight is important every time you need to overcome inertia or gravity. What works in the context of a track or time trial may slow you down in the cut and thrust of a commute, for example.
3) Get a new chainset only if you can detect anything wrong with the one you have, or if it is incompatible with the ring size that you need.

In order of value for money that you will optimise your gear ratio:
1) Ask yourself whether you really need to change your ratio, or are you just tinkering for the fun of it.
2) 1 tooth on the sprocket makes more difference than 1 tooth on the chainring. At the sizes that you'e talking about (around 48/15) one tooth on the front makes 1/48 difference to your ratio (say 2%) and 1 tooth on the back makes 1/15 difference (say 7%). The effect of changing both for bigger, or both for smaller will be that the changes tend to cancel each other out.

Of course, change for change's sake, and pimping your ride is legitimate and we've all done it from time to time, but if you're looking at genuine performance gains and good value on a budget, you need to think about it realistically.
I'm fully committed to upgrading my components. New and better. Of course I want my bike to look good but that's just a bonus of upgrading. I care more about performance. I want to be able to maintain more high speed rather than have faster acceleration. Also I want to go to a higher cog and chain ring for a smoother drive train. Tires: I ride gatorskin hardshell and I don't want to change that. There's glass etc. everywhere you look down here. I also ride tire liners. Yes I know it's more rotational weight but I like not worrying about getting flats.

TimothyH 09-11-18 12:24 PM
Originally Posted by ryan_rides (Post 20559562)
I want to be able to maintain more high speed rather than have faster acceleration.
Lighter wheels will give you both.

Get the lightest wheels you can that will still hold together.

If I could convince you to go with lighter tires I would but flats suck so I won't try.

What kind of bike are we talking about anyway? What is it? Sorry if I don't recall from another thread.


-Tim-


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