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-   -   Another annoying crankset question, sorry (https://www.bikeforums.net/singlespeed-fixed-gear/1222645-another-annoying-crankset-question-sorry.html)

acideraser 01-29-21 01:58 PM

Another annoying crankset question, sorry
 
Hi All,
Apologies for asking this question but don't seem to find an answer using search.

I've been riding Vigorelli frame for years, mainly commuting in London, but this summer started going out to Kent and climb some not too steep hills.
Sugino rd2 / messenger cranks, from another cheaper frame. Wasn't happy with the chain line and with the quality but they worked so was ok.
Yesterday right crank broke, I suspect there may have been a microcrack and climbing hills probably added to the issue and here we go.

I love stiffness of Vigorelli frame and looking to replace the crank with something better and stiffer than messenger.
and I understand hollow bb such as GPX or Hollowtech II will add in stiffness - please correct me if I am wrong here.
I was thinking of getting SRAM Omnium but they are now discontinued and whatever is available is £200 or more.

Assuming Omniums are out of reach, what would be next good option - Miche Pistard 2.0 or Sram S300 or should I get Miche Primato Advance and stay with square taper bb?
Is Miche pistard 2 as stiff as Omniums or at least stiffer than messenger and better quality ?

Appreciate the comments

Senrab62 01-29-21 03:12 PM

Welcome!
 
Vigorelli is steel, right? I have the RD2 crankset and don't find it overly flexy. I am a Clyde, and fairly strong. I do, however, notice BB/stay/frame flex on steel frames. Rarely if ever actual crank arm flex. But that is my experience LOL. This includes many vintage rides. Always BB flex, rarely cranks.

S300 is supposed to be excellent for the price. I previously mentioned a China special that I like well enough. Also check out the Andel deluxe track crankset. A good value. I think fyxation and someone else also sell decent hollow track cranks for less than omnium money.

acideraser 01-29-21 05:24 PM

Hi Senrab and thank you.

Mine is an aluminium frame, no flex in the frame and didnít feel any flex with sugino.
I just donít want a new crank less stiff than messenger as I assume it will affect the power.

just looked at s300 specs - it uses 130 bcd rings which is fine for me as I can use my messenger or TA chainrings Iíve got.

is it better / stiffer than the miche pistard 2?

also are GXP or hollowtech II systems better thanks JIS sq. taper for fixed gear bikes?

aniki 02-01-21 05:32 AM


Originally Posted by acideraser (Post 21901214)
I just donít want a new crank less stiff than messenger as I assume it will affect the power.

Quite honestly, I really don't think you'd tell the difference. Not trying to be rude but unless you're huge, strong and racing track sprints one crank will feel much like another. Even then, the sprinters I know couldn't care less what their cranks are.
If you want ultimate stiffness it's Omniums (discontinued), Dura Ace 7710 or Sugino 75 but most people (myself included) buy what they like not what they need.


Originally Posted by acideraser (Post 21901214)
also are GXP or hollowtech II systems better than JIS sq. taper for fixed gear bikes?

Plenty of Keirin racers still using square taper as well as countless thousands of happy fixed gear riders. I don't think anyone could honestly justify why one might be 'better' than another in the real world so again, just buy what you like.
I have 7710 on my commuter and Sugino 75dd2 on my main bikes. Personally I prefer the Sugino as they copied the hollowtech II system so bottom brackets are far more readily available but can I 'feel' a difference? Hell no!

With reference to the models you mentioned and compatibility with your chainrings; some of the basic Miche cranks are well known to be more prone to failure than others; however, I would say as long as you steer clear of really basic unbranded chinese imports just take your pick for whatever suits.

acideraser 02-01-21 06:45 AM

Thanks for the suggestions. I kind of like the idea and simplicity of Hollowtech system.
I think I will go with SRAM S300 - I can use my 130 bcd rings with it.

Hopefully this will finally sort the chainline as well.

acideraser 02-02-21 10:47 AM

Well, finally changed my mind and ordered Omniums from Condor bikes... Now I am concerned a bit with the chain line and frame clearances. :foo:

veganbikes 02-02-21 01:58 PM


Originally Posted by acideraser (Post 21906298)
Well, finally changed my mind and ordered Omniums from Condor bikes... Now I am concerned a bit with the chain line and frame clearances. :foo:

Yeah that is why cranks like that don't get no love from me. If the crank is not going to fit a frame designed for track cranks it is a good thing to avoid especially more since it is no longer being produced. However hopefully it fits but remember no spacers on it so if it doesn't fit without the need for spacers, sell it. Luckily it has a cult following so it should be an easy sell.

I would go Sugino 75 DD (or DD2) and have all the greatness of the external B.B. that people love with a good solid, stiff and good looking crankset that is likely to fit most frames (I can't say all frames because I am sure someone will do some whacky designs.

TejanoTrackie 02-02-21 02:24 PM


Originally Posted by veganbikes (Post 21906563)
I would go Sugino 75 DD (or DD2) and have all the greatness of the external B.B. that people love with a good solid, stiff and good looking crankset that is likely to fit most frames (I can't say all frames because I am sure someone will do some whacky designs.

Have you checked on the latest prices for the Sugino 75 DD2 ? By the time you get the nice TORX chainring bolts, the black version will set you back $900. When I bought my black Sugino DD crankset they were only about $500. I was going to buy a ZEN chainring, but they too have nearly doubled in price. OP, if it were me, I would have gone with the Andel cranks, which are plenty stiff and strong, will fit just about anything, and are a heck lot cheaper to boot.

veganbikes 02-02-21 02:28 PM


Originally Posted by TejanoTrackie (Post 21906605)
Have you checked on the latest prices for the Sugino 75 DD2 ? By the time you get the nice TORX chainring bolts, the black version will set you back $900. When I bought my black Sugino DD crankset they were only about $500. I was going to buy a ZEN chainring, but they too have nearly doubled in price. OP, if it were me, I would have gone with the Andel cranks, which are plenty stiff and strong, will fit just about anything, and are a heck lot cheaper to boot.

I haven't looked at pricing in a while. I know the DD1 isn't quite that high but haven't really studied prices on the new one.

The Andel External B.B. crank is a great option as well. Retrogression sells unlabeled ones for cool looks.

acideraser 02-02-21 06:01 PM


Originally Posted by veganbikes (Post 21906563)
... However hopefully it fits but remember no spacers on it so if it doesn't fit without the need for spacers, sell it. Luckily it has a cult following so it should be an easy sell.

Not planning to use spacers. My understanding is it should fit in the end, worst case 44-45mm chainline


Originally Posted by veganbikes (Post 21906563)
I would go Sugino 75 DD (or DD2) and have all the greatness of the external B.B. that people love with a good solid, stiff and good looking crankset that is likely to fit most frames (I can't say all frames because I am sure someone will do some whacky designs.

I imagine 75DD is top of the top, but sadly au out of my budget.

acideraser 02-02-21 06:40 PM

I don't think Andel with external bb is sold in UK, only saw square taper.

What about this Alpina crank, is it any good? I think this is stock bb for Dolan track bikes.
I can't post link to the Alpina crank yet but it is on Dolan website

Altimis 02-02-21 08:33 PM

Well, Keirin in Japan is different beast. They still strict about bike builds for use in Keirin races. Those NJS parts is for insurance for parts builders in Japan such frame builders, hubs, wheels and many other parts will get the jobs and earn the money for living. So its kinda running business domestically.

Japanese Keirin riders often have more than 2-3 bike, their second bike for use in Track/Velodrome other than Keirin races were modern Track bike like Look, Pinarello or Bridgestone newest model etc. They use those traditional steel bike frame (but with updated geometry nowadays) is not mean its the best. Its just their NJS rules (and helping the locally builders to keep running the jobs).

The modern Japanese Keirin is "GIRL" version of Keirin. They use modern bike and parts.

By the way, this not mean square taper is bad in anyway, they still extremely fine and solid performance for use in Track racing. I just pointing out Japanese Keirin why use traditional parts.

veganbikes 02-02-21 08:47 PM


Originally Posted by acideraser (Post 21906974)
Not planning to use spacers. My understanding is it should fit in the end, worst case 44-45mm chainline


I imagine 75DD is top of the top, but sadly au out of my budget.

The Super 75 DD2 is maybe the top of the top of non-power meter cranks but Phil Wood Track Cranks are quite high end. The regular DD2 is certainly a higher end crank but that was sort of the position of the Omnium in a sense but I don't think it hit that mark. The original DD crank wasn't quite so crazy but maybe it has issues I haven't hit yet. It did come loose on me once but I reinstalled everything properly and no issues beyond that. I think that was my fault.

acideraser 02-03-21 04:48 AM


Originally Posted by veganbikes (Post 21907191)
The Super 75 DD2 is maybe the top of the top of non-power meter cranks but Phil Wood Track Cranks are quite high end. The regular DD2 is certainly a higher end crank but that was sort of the position of the Omnium in a sense but I don't think it hit that mark. The original DD crank wasn't quite so crazy but maybe it has issues I haven't hit yet. It did come loose on me once but I reinstalled everything properly and no issues beyond that. I think that was my fault.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to get 75DD but just can't afford it. Even Omnoms are a bit of a stretch but if they don't fit will have to look at alternatives within the budget.
I decided to steer clear from Miche after finding complaints their cranks crack and snap, so it is either S300 (don't like the look) or possibly Aplina crankset that Dolan fit on their pre-cursa track bikes as these are the only two available here with external bb.
I am however curios about this Alpina crankset from Dolan which is also also sold by Retrogression but I am struggling to find any reviews any info at all.

TugaDude 02-03-21 07:28 AM


Originally Posted by acideraser (Post 21907422)
Don't get me wrong, I would love to get 75DD but just can't afford it. Even Omnoms are a bit of a stretch but if they don't fit will have to look at alternatives within the budget.
I decided to steer clear from Miche after finding complaints their cranks crack and snap, so it is either S300 (don't like the look) or possibly Aplina crankset that Dolan fit on their pre-cursa track bikes as these are the only two available here with external bb.
I am however curios about this Alpina crankset from Dolan which is also also sold by Retrogression but I am struggling to find any reviews any info at all.

Reach out to Scrodzilla, AKA Dave, the owner of Retrogression. He will tell you about the various cranks he inventories. He rides and knows what works and what doesn't.

acideraser 02-03-21 08:09 AM


Originally Posted by TugaDude (Post 21907498)
Reach out to Scrodzilla, AKA Dave, the owner of Retrogression. He will tell you about the various cranks he inventories. He rides and knows what works and what doesn't.

Thanks, I actually found a post where he says Alpina track is very good.
Seems I have to return Omniums and get the Alpina - back of chainring bolt is rubbing chainstay slightly :(

acideraser 02-04-21 07:33 AM

Ended up fitting S300. Chainline looks good, no issues.
Good crank, same or possibly slightly better than RD2 due to different type BB. (my subjective opinion).

Only after fully fitting S300 I realised that Oniums would be fine too but very tight. Turns out I was checking with only DS cup in and put the spider arm flush with the cup.
With both cups there is about 1-2mm gap between the crank and and bb cup which would give same clearance from chainstay to the spider arm.

Finally there is chainring nut wrench by Condor Cycles which works on S300 bolts better than Shimano or Parktool - this is for benefit others looking for info how to change chainrings on S300.


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