brakeless-skids and skips
 

so i was trying to adjust my front brake when i aparently tightened it to tight or something and snapped the bolt, so now without a brake, by default i have decided to try going brakeless for a bit...in nyc by the way... i have been riding fixed for a while and am fairly comfortable with skips and skids, I was just wondering if anyone had any advice. Do y'all find skipping or skidding more effective for slowing down. I rememeber somone way back when trying to give a physics explanation for why skipping is more effective which didnt really make sense. anyway, im just gunna take it slow and enjoy the money that i didnt purchase a new brake with..or something. thanks

you can always stop faster with a front brake. anyone who tells you otherwise needs to go to a physics class. i ride brakeless, and i'm one of the few brakeless riders who will actually admit this.

in my opinion, you should ride with a front brake until you're comfortable with skips and skids. you shouldn't actually have to buy the whole shebang. if you go to a good bike shop that you're buddy buddy with, they probably have a pin that'll work for your brake. it's always better to have that backup plan when you're faced with a panic stop situation and you're not completely sure how to handle it brakeless. in emergencies, i use skips/skids to slow me down while i see how to get out of the situation.

sorry if this thread is kinda loopy, i'm kind of out of it right now.

man, necklous, you sure sound like an idiot.

My analogy might help or might confuse the chit out of you :)

Between Skipping and Skidding

First: Skipping and Skidding .. slow or stop your bike with the mean of friction between rear tire and road surface...

Skipping VS Skidding

Skidding: rider body weight is lean toward the front wheel for most effective Skidding.
Skipping: rider body weight is most likely closer to the rear wheel than when you skidding.

In theory.. surface friction force will increase with respect to the normal force to the surface. that's mean, if you put more weight on the rear wheel, you will increase the friction force.

So.... Skiping will result in greater friction force than skidding. Which result in faster deceralation...

I hope that make sense... anyone think otherwise?

a brake might be faster but it doesn't make your legs any stronger! THe stronger you are the faster you can slow your bike.

k I have a question. how many car lengths does it take to stop from 15mph using skidding? how about skipping?

— I can't do either, and it takes me 2 lengths to slow my bike to a stop.

In slightly planer English than puckman:
All other things being equal, you have the most stopping power the split second before a tire locks up (loses traction) and starts to slide, when the tire is still gripping the pavement. Skipping is stringing together mini-skids, almost like how anti-lock brakes work on a car.

I was going to say that skidding looks cooler, but seeing someone (seemingly) effortlessly skip is pretty damn beautiful.

Skidding is funner.

Funny... I don't have any issues with insufficient hand strength to engage my brake.

Just sayin.

your speed is also relavent. some people ride faster with a break knowing, they can stop faster. so if you're brakeless you might go a bit slower on a road you might normally take at a higher speed if you had brakes.

steering, speed and heightened awareness are as much a part of brakeless riding as much as skidding/skipping, and usually aren't included in the "brakes stop faster" explainations. (which i believe by the way, just saying - there's other factors to think about).

Well, sure. The bike that stops fastest is the one that never gets going, but where's the fun in that?

its a lot funner then youd think

Why exactly? Actually, it's you that sounds like an idiot. Offence intended.

The guy can skip and skid, why couldn't he use the excuse of having F'd up his brake to go brakeless and ask the veterans whether to skip or skid when he needs to stop fast?
He'll just have to go a bit slower than usual, and you'll just have to think before you type.

man if you feel like going nude then go nude. if you decide you don't really want to i have a spare brake that came off the front of my last conversion. it's an ’80s side-pull, can't remember what brand. be glad to give it to you if you want. just lemme know

Actually, he's my best friend and I was just joking around with him.
But whatever, please continue scolding me.

yup.

and I would add that if you cannot do an emergency side skid both to the left and right then you should not be out there with out a brake...

man. i cad a car pull into my lane and stop. i was taking the whole lane down bowery, going 20mph *with a brake* and he gave me all of 10 feet to stop. i didn't, and rear ended him. dense friday afternoon traffic on the bowery. i was skidding and braking. apparently i endoed also.

wheels were true (phils + open pros, front radially laced !!!) but my front fork was totally hosed.

it's true that in my case i ride faster with brakes. it's also true i really smacked that car up. and according to the police, i was technically at fault for rear-ending him.

in summation, riding full force into a stopped vehicle is better for stopping than skidding, skipping, and braking combined. highly recommended if you want to replace bits and pieces of your bike.

I rode brakeless on my track till I started riding on the velodrome. I've found that riding brakeless is a great way to ride but it also leaves alot to be desired as far as training goes. Your legs are not used to pushing the big gears you do on the track if the majority of your riding is on the street. Maybe have two bikes and switching it up would be ideal.

don't panic!

All of the physics arguments I've heard on this forum had a lot of handwaving and compared a front brake to a rear brake. Someone who is skilled at riding brakeless can stop much faster than someone using only a rear brake. I'm not trying to argue that you can stop as fast/faster without a front brake, merely that the explaination given is flawed. Skipping applies much more brakeing force than a rear brake because the wheel actually starts spinning in the opposite direction. With a rear brake the most you can do is lock the wheel.

All that said I ride with a brake, and based on observing my friends who ride brakeless and those who ride with a brake, the brakeless ones take longer to stop.

If your wheel is spinning backwards that means it's skidding. You'll stop no quicker than if you simply had a rear brake. In fact, a brake that doesn't cause you to skid will stop you faster yet.

look at how much weight is behind the contact patch of your rear tire versus how much weight is behind the contact patch of the front. when skidding/skipping/braking/whatever with your rear wheel you're essentially pulling most of your weight to a stop. when you jam on the front brake you're pushing it. therefore the force of a front brake will nearly always be stronger than the force of any method used to slow from the rear. this is a very dumbed down explanation, but you get the picture.

exactly.. as somone said before, the greatest stopping force is the point *just* before lockup.

Think about it this way:

Get in a car, drive in reverse at about 15mph, shift into 1st and jam on the gas. (this is a thought experiment, don't come whining when you make your clutch smell like burning :))

result: lots of noise, some smoke - sure sounds like it's doing something. BUT, it's going to take you a few seconds to go from traveling in reverse to forwards (and therefore passing the 0mph point)

Now, do the same thing, but simply jam on the brakes. You'll stop so fast you won't be able to keep your head upright. Jarring, huh?

Not only that, but it's a lot easier to manuver when none of your wheels are locked up -- whether you're in a car or on a bike.

Just my $.02.

Now, having said this skidding sure is a lot of fun (again: car OR bike)! :D

I forgot what the original question on this post is so I'm just going to add my two cents. I've gone from being a front brake advocate to a brakeless rider and truth be told I haven't had more close calls brakeless than when I ran a brake.

Actually I take that back. In the La Canada hills I almost died going down too steep a grade to stop. That wasn't very fun. That was the only time I wished I had a brake.

All that BS about how your awareness increases when you ride brakeless and become more aware I found isn't BS afterall, its true. I'm a much more alert and safe rider since I took my brake off.

I couldn't agree more.
You find yourself riding like 20 feet ahead of yourself with acute concentration on every car (parked and moving), pedestrian and pothole.

and riding slower as well.