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is a custom frame worth it?

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is a custom frame worth it?

Old 10-04-05, 05:59 PM
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Custom is pretty cool and there are tons of excellent framebuilders out there. I just can't justify the cost for the average joe who isn't racing or for someone that doesn't need a custom.

People get custom because they can't find exactly what they are looking for off the rack. It mainly comes down to about fit and experience, and then sometimes the artsy thing. If you have the experience and know you want a modified geometry that you can't obtain off the rack, then custom is a great alternative. If you want some really cool stainless lugs ornately cut into a pattern (like Vanilla frames), then good luck finding that anywhere. You're next best bet is custom.

For the average joe, it's a no go.
For the $$ discerning buyer, custom may be the route.
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Old 10-04-05, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Walkercycles
No Sacha, not mutually exclusive. I think he meant to say your stuff is "eye popping beautiful" while my bikes are built specifically to be raced and do not have the "flash". Racers dont particularly care for "flash" or "bling factor", they usually dont have the cash for that type of frame. Most of the racers I know want FREE bikes and dont care what they look like.
Nothing wrong with his comments in my opinion. Least we both got mentioned...

DW
Don,

I'm not sure I understand. We both finish our fillets, we both take pride in our paint work etc. Are you saying you don't try to make your bikes look good with things like flames, stars and stripes "police line do not cross" murals? Am I missing something?. If we are going to talk finish quality of free/sponsorship frames and what "racers" do or don't want to pay for, I think that is a different conversation.
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Old 10-04-05, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Judah
Don't get butt-hurt dude, see DW's response, it explains my statement pretty well. Some people want a beautiful bike with hand carved, chromed lugs, cool seatpost, etc. and some people want a hardcore racing machine. Not saying that the two are mutually exclusive, but for them to exist in the same frame takes a lot more money than most of us mortals are able to spend. You and Don sell to different markets, no? I mean, most of Don's customers are people who use their bikes primarily to race. Most of the Vanilla bikes I've seen out there are very very pretty, but not neccesarily racers...

Not trying to offend you, you're an artist man, and a great one at that. I'm just commenting on a trend I've noticed. I'd love to own one of your bikes, same way I'd love to own a VanGogh, but I can't justify the price.
Hi Judah,

I'm not sure what butt-hurt means.

some of my costomers buy bikes for racing and some don't. Some of my bikes are fancy and some are more straight forward. All of them are designed based on what the owners want them for, and are no fancier than what they are comfortable riding (this is very important to me). All of my bikes are built with sound construction whether for racing, touring, or picking up hotties. Any bling is really just gravy.

I am not offended, but I don't things are as cut and dry as Vanilla= pretty Walker = fast, so I thought I would say something.
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Old 10-04-05, 11:31 PM
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[QUOTE=Walkercycles]"Ok, thats one...
My bikes have won Gold, Silver and Bronze at U.S., Trinidad/Tobago and Canadian National championships and medals at International competitions such as Commonwealth Games and compted at World Cup competitions. My bikes are under the reigning Texas State Champions on road AND Track."

Don, are we really going to get into a pissing match over who's riders have done what? ughh.

vanilla has multiple state cross champions, my riders have been on the podium at cross nats, 24 hr nats, and have gold from 24 hr worlds. My riders have also been to cross worlds.

most high quality builders can claim similar to what you and I have claimed, Don. Many can claim far more. What does this prove other than we can both act like a$$holes on a forum?

-Sacha

Last edited by sacha white; 10-05-05 at 01:02 AM.
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Old 10-05-05, 12:26 AM
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oh...master builder catfight. next they'll be throwing flux in each others' eyes...Tell y'all what: winner gets to build me a bike!

On another note (one of the orginal points of this thread,) custom is certainly not just for freaks, folks generally not comfortable on bikes, and folks with extra cash. I think I'm a good example of this, and I don't think I'm alone. I probably earn less money than many (unemployed and trustfund hipsters excepted) on this forum, but I'm probably near the top in terms of bike expenses. There are some things that I don't care about so much (coolness of my neighborhood, how fashionable my clothes/shoe are, etc) so that I can spend my time and my money on something that truly matters to me.

One thing that really matters to me is knowing that one highly skilled human put their knowledge and skill into building something specifically for me. Not only that, but they feel so proud of their work that they'll put their name on it and claim it as their own creation. They even made a decent wage doing it.

This is why I'm drawn to custom. This is why I have so much respect and admiration for the likes of Richard Sachs (I hope to get on his waiting list in the next 2 months), Sacha White and Don Walker to name just a few. There are few realms in which you can buy something that is among the very best of whatever it is at such a bargan. A custom bike is a work of art that also has a functional purpose that you can draw years of enjoyment from; and for a fraction of the cost of a used junk car.
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Old 10-05-05, 02:16 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Walkercycles
Ok, thats one...
My bikes have won Gold, Silver and Bronze at U.S., Trinidad/Tobago and Canadian National championships and medals at International competitions such as Commonwealth Games and compted at World Cup competitions. My bikes are under the reigning Texas State Champions on road AND Track.
Dont get me wrong, I am not knocking Sacha at all. Richard Sachs even tells me that his team cross bikes do NOT get the attention to detail his paying customers frames get.Idont know a bulder out there that spends the same amount of time on a sponsored frame as they do on paying customers bikes.
why do you always turn everything frame-related into a penis-measuring contest?

Last edited by baxtefer; 10-05-05 at 02:21 AM.
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Old 10-05-05, 04:13 AM
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Sacha - I looked at your site for the first time a few weeks ago, and your bikes are GORGEOUS. To the point that I suddenly had a new #1 in the bikes I'd like to buy stakes. If I was racing, and I could afford it, I'd want one that looked like yours. If, however, I was heading for a major championship, and to have a bike that looked like yours and was fettled perfectly for racing was more than I could afford, but one which had less attention to gorgeousness, but was just as good, was within my budget, then I'd most likely go for the one I could afford, rather than have you make one with gas pipe tubing to bring the price down.

There's no reason not to have both, but it's true to say that if most racers really wanted the most gorgeous bike out there, they'd all be riding Vanillas. Evidently they don't all want your detailing so badly. I, however do, and should I ever become national champ of anything, I'd badly want to do it on a machine that looked like it had been built by God himself......
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Old 10-05-05, 07:51 AM
  #58  
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Well, here's something to consider.

A guy I met while riding pick-up sprints has a beautiful Circle A track bike. He kicked our butts riding that thing. But, last sprint I went to, he had a pedal strike (struck pedal?) after a race was over. skidded on his side into a small ridge of parking lot concrete. The paint wasn't scratched much (unbelievably) but there was a dent in the top tube.

I can't imagine when the expense of a custom frame is going to be worth the worrying about the inevitable scratch, bump, or wreck. he was a trooper about it, cheerful even (considering how he ate it). I'd be moping and whining for weeks.
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Old 10-05-05, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Wambat
I can't imagine when the expense of a custom frame is going to be worth the worrying about the inevitable scratch, bump, or wreck. he was a trooper about it, cheerful even (considering how he ate it). I'd be moping and whining for weeks.
Feh. A bike is meant to be ridden, even a pretty bike. That means the inevitable scratches and dings. If the ding in the top tube isn't that big, it's purely cosmetic and the bike can continue to be safely ridden. It only affects the resale value and nobody buys a custom frame with the intent to resell it.

And if it's structural, well it can be replaced for just a few hundred bucks. So while it's expensive on the front end, except in the event that it's totalled, an expensive frame can be repaired just as cheaply as buying or repairing a cheap one.

Now ask jrowedc about how he chipped the paint on his custom Kalakinka with a wrench while assembling it. That's a tale of woe, if you ask me.
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Old 10-05-05, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Walkercycles
I bet whatever bike I made you would be faster than anything you had ever ridden before...put me to the test!

DW


Please stop with the self propaganda. Why do you feel the need to boast all the time?

#1 - Its the human that is fast, not the bike.
#2 - Custom is great, but how can it be fairly determined if your frame is any "faster" than that of another builder, custom Vanilla or not?
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Old 10-05-05, 10:22 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by sacha white
Hi Judah,

I'm not sure what butt-hurt means.

some of my costomers buy bikes for racing and some don't. Some of my bikes are fancy and some are more straight forward. All of them are designed based on what the owners want them for, and are no fancier than what they are comfortable riding (this is very important to me). All of my bikes are built with sound construction whether for racing, touring, or picking up hotties. Any bling is really just gravy.

I am not offended, but I don't things are as cut and dry as Vanilla= pretty Walker = fast, so I thought I would say something.
Cool man, I understand where you're coming from. The statement about Vanilla = pretty Walker = fast was really just a quick way for me to refer the original poster to a few builders should he want a pretty or fast bike, please take it as a compliment, your bikes are the most beautiful I've seen. It was not meant to imply any shortcomings on either of your parts.
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Old 10-05-05, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Judah
Cool man, I understand where you're coming from. The statement about Vanilla = pretty Walker = fast was really just a quick way for me to refer the original poster to a few builders should he want a pretty or fast bike, please take it as a compliment, your bikes are the most beautiful I've seen. It was not meant to imply any shortcomings on either of your parts.
Thanks, Judah.

We'll shake hands over a beer in San Jose at the show.

-Sacha
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Old 10-05-05, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by sacha white
Thanks, Judah.

We'll shake hands over a beer in San Jose at the show.

-Sacha
Now that's a great idea, I'll be there.
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Old 10-05-05, 02:25 PM
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Everytime Don Walker posts on this forum I dislike his company more and more?
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Old 10-05-05, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by kennethalan
Everytime Don Walker posts on this forum I dislike his company more and more?
Is that a question? It's tricky judging people (or their companies) by their posts. I've met a lot of people from this forum, and I've never guessed correctly about what they would be like in person.
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Old 10-05-05, 02:29 PM
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Teh internetz aren't the final word?
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Old 10-05-05, 07:44 PM
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DW just has pride in his work. i like that.

but i agree and disagree with him a little. yes, a walker frame WOULD make me a faster rider, but so would not drinking a beer or, as i plan on doing soon, lifting weights more often. the OP sounded to me like someone who would benefit more from riding a little more (or lifting weights, or whatever) than from buying a custom frame. maybe i am wrong, but that was my impression. custom frames make more sense to me for people who are already competitive. and i beleive that is DW's market. right?
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Old 10-06-05, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Msngr
DW just has pride in his work. i like that.

As well as a lot of ignorance in other people's work.
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Old 10-06-05, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by bellweatherman
As well as a lot of ignorance in other people's work.
How can he organize handmade bike show when he's ignorant in other people's work?
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Old 10-06-05, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by trespasser
How can he organize handmade bike show when he's ignorant in other people's work?

Check this thread:
Some notable pro framebuilders aren't exactly in agreement with Walker's schpeel.

https://www.frameforum.net/forum2/ind...?showtopic=975

Last edited by bellweatherman; 10-06-05 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 10-06-05, 07:15 AM
  #71  
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Don, you might be interested in a post on the track forum yesterday. I was asking questions about low end bikes, cos I might give it a try, but I have little disposable moolah, so even a Fuji Track SE is going to hurt my wallet....

Anyway, one of the guys there who leads several sessions a week on his local velodrome was saying they have low end KHS and Fuji bikes as their rental bikes, and "Heck until recently the one-lap track record was held by someone on a rental bike."

Evidently it ain't absoLUTELY necessary to have a Don Walker to be fast.
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Old 10-06-05, 08:11 AM
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Of course, Don. Don't get me wrong, I have had crappy bikes, I have a good vintage bike now, I've owned a good brand new bike. I know better ones are better, and though I've never had one made for me, I can well imagine that it might be better still. It did seem to me, however, that you were making the bike into a larger part of the equation than it was.

Imagine, if you will, a situation where there are two guys building wonderful, awesome, track bikes. One or other of their bikes wins every race, and there's pretty much nothing to choose between them. One of these guys spends a lot of time trumpeting about how awesome his bikes are, citing at length things that prove what a cool guy he is, making comments like "I bet whatever bike I made you would be faster than anything you had ever ridden before...put me to the test!". The other one quietly goes about his business, does what he does, is helpful to people, and lets the bikes and the results do the talking. People are going to percieve those two guys differently, aren't they, even though there might be nothing to choose between what they do?

The long and short of what I'm saying here is that I found myself WANTING to pick holes in what you were saying, to the stage that I did so even though it was a pretty weak point. That's no kudos to me whatsoever, but it might give you an idea of what lots of 'tude can inspire in potential customers. I love custom bikes, I aspire to one day have one made for me, and there are a number of places I might go for that. I can safely say that you aren't one of them, and I've not even bothered to look at your site. So it might not be a good thing for business.......
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Old 10-06-05, 09:36 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by kennethalan
Everytime Don Walker posts on this forum I dislike his company more and more?
...
Originally Posted by Walkercycles
bummer
__________________
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Old 10-06-05, 09:50 AM
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I know, Don, and I don't wanna fight with you. I realized what I said AFTER I posted the business about the Fuji, and I thought it might help you in, you know, customer relations and all. I wanna ride a custom bike, and you want me to wanna ride one of yours, probably.
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Old 10-06-05, 10:15 AM
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In that case, piss people off to your hearts content!
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