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High Flange Hub Failure

Old 01-17-06, 11:54 AM
  #26  
chicagoamdream
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Suntour Superbe hubs came radially laced on the stock wheels of Cannondale track bikes back in the bad old days. I would assume an implicit endorsement there.
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Old 01-17-06, 01:47 PM
  #27  
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i have some suntours laced radialy and some shimanos laced radial up front too. it's never a problem if you know how to do it right. people often over stress the spokes, they tighten them too much and they either brake or mess up the flange. people also do the mistake of lacing radial hubs with straight gauge spokes. i always use double butted spokes. straight gauge almost attack the hub, double butted spokes take most of the impact before the hub does. radial laced hubs should also be laced heads out, that doesn't seem to be a problem on this hub though.

PS tightening the nipples too much adds stress to the hub AND the rim, if you don't have eyelets cracks can form around the holes of the rim and the hub would also maybe break.
 
Old 01-17-06, 01:51 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Lunigma
i have some suntours laced radialy and some shimanos laced radial up front too. it's never a problem if you know how to do it right. people often over stress the spokes, they tighten them too much and they either brake or mess up the flange. people also do the mistake of lacing radial hubs with straight gauge spokes. i always use double butted spokes. straight gauge almost attack the hub, double butted spokes take most of the impact before the hub does. radial laced hubs should also be laced heads out, that doesn't seem to be a problem on this hub though

The mechanical advantage generally listed for radial lacing is stiffness. Straight gauge spokes share this benefit. If you must use butted spokes to make radial lacing work, it seems like a waste of money (at best) when you could just use HF hubs and straight gauge spokes for an even stiffer wheel.
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Old 01-17-06, 01:53 PM
  #29  
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hey Ford, i put my hyundai in the garage so my hubs dont crack.
 
Old 01-17-06, 02:50 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Jose R
Radial does build a stiffer wheel, but not necessarily a stronger wheel than a three crossed wheel. In a cross laced design the load is distributed over all the spokes, thereby relieving pressure on the hub and bearings.

In a radial laced wheel, the load is placed solely on the hub. So, not only does your hub flange need to be beefier, but so does your bearings housing design.
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Both lacings put all the load from the rim to the hub. That's what spokes do.

The difference is in how this force is transferred to the hub. Radially, each spoke is pulling out perpendicularly to the hub. The more spoke displacement (2x has less than 3x, and so forth) the more tangentially to the hub the force is applied. Since tangentially, there is more material holding the spoke in place, it will tend to not break. However, this does increase the length of the spokes, thus giving you a less stiff wheel.
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Old 01-17-06, 03:42 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Aeroplane
The difference is in how this force is transferred to the hub.
Yes, that's what I was getting at. I was being a bit extreme in my description.
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Old 01-17-06, 04:56 PM
  #32  
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solution! don't get cut out hubs.
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Old 01-17-06, 05:41 PM
  #33  
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so...not to hijack this thread (instead, think of it as sparing you another one), but would it thus be a dumb idea to lace my low-flange front Phil hub radially?
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Old 01-17-06, 05:52 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by xthugmurderx
solution! don't get cut out hubs.
that are 30 years old, lace them radially and leave them out in the inclement weather...
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Old 01-17-06, 07:01 PM
  #35  
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ok highjack #2. So radial seems to be out for my next 36h HF build but what about crows foot or 3 leading/3 trailing? Any suggestions?
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Old 01-17-06, 07:05 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by weed eater
so...not to hijack this thread (instead, think of it as sparing you another one), but would it thus be a dumb idea to lace my low-flange front Phil hub radially?
yeah, if only because so many hub manufacturers discourage radial lacing and it voids their warranties if you do that. if it's true that phils are different, at least in the warranty respect, then sure, do it...but even if it's warrantied, it'll still suck if it breaks.
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Old 01-17-06, 07:10 PM
  #37  
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phil wood it and forget it. you break a phil wood and your a beast.
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Old 01-17-06, 07:15 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by ImOnCrank
ok highjack #2. So radial seems to be out for my next 36h HF build but what about crows foot or 3 leading/3 trailing? Any suggestions?
3L/3T is very strong (provided you interlace the spokes as well), and not hard to lace. I would recommend it to anyone who has built a wheel before. I can't imagine it would be any more than a marginal strength difference from 3x, since all the angles are the same. My 3L/3T is holding up great on a coaster-brake 700c rear wheel, so its no stranger to a little bit of stress.
Never tried crows foot (yet)
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Old 01-17-06, 07:31 PM
  #39  
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my rear wheel, matching hub, is 3L/3T....works well, if been riding it hard all summer and only had to true much after a nasty double pothole hit....looks sweet too
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Old 01-17-06, 09:07 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by visitordesign
haha. did you read this?
hey, I'm telling!
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Old 01-17-06, 11:44 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by ImOnCrank
ok highjack #2. So radial seems to be out for my next 36h HF build but what about crows foot or 3 leading/3 trailing? Any suggestions?
doesn't the crows-foot have a radial spoke in every set of 3 spokes?
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Old 01-18-06, 01:21 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by r-dub
The mechanical advantage generally listed for radial lacing is stiffness. Straight gauge spokes share this benefit. If you must use butted spokes to make radial lacing work, it seems like a waste of money (at best) when you could just use HF hubs and straight gauge spokes for an even stiffer wheel.
http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#radial

it is not a waste of money, i personaly think radial lacing is for aesthetics. I hope sheldon doesn't mind me quoting his site:

"I would advise avoiding using thick spokes and very high tension. Since front wheels are generally pretty trouble-free compared with rears, you don't need super-high tension on a front wheel that uses a reasonable number of spokes." - Sheldon Brown

"any torque applied at the hub of a radial spoked wheel will result in a very great increase in spoke tension, almost certainly causing hub or spoke failure." - Sheldon Brown

"If a used hub is re-laced radially, the notches left by the old spokes can act as stress risers, further weakening the flange." -Sheldon brown
 
Old 01-18-06, 01:27 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Lunigma

"If a used hub is re-laced radially, the notches left by the old spokes can act as stress risers, further weakening the flange." -Sheldon brown
Bingo.
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Old 01-18-06, 01:49 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by ryan_c
3L/3T is very strong (provided you interlace the spokes as well), and not hard to lace. I would recommend it to anyone who has built a wheel before. I can't imagine it would be any more than a marginal strength difference from 3x, since all the angles are the same. My 3L/3T is holding up great on a coaster-brake 700c rear wheel, so its no stranger to a little bit of stress.
Never tried crows foot (yet)

Check out my post on 3l3t on teh mechanics forum:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ading+trailing

I've since relaced the wheel 3 cross, which returned the hubs to true, but I can't be sure the flanges aren't weakened because of the 3l3t pattern.

Has anyone built 3l3t without interlacing the spokes? I would build a wheel again with this pattern `for looks, but only if it doesn't cause this insane hub wobble.
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Old 01-18-06, 04:29 AM
  #45  
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You sort of overlaced those spokes, it seems to me. People don't force spokes across on each other that close to the hub.

Quoting dbg from the mecs forum: "fad lacings are for tennis shoes of 12 yo girls"
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Old 01-18-06, 11:16 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by visitordesign
haha. did you read this?
Pretty cute, but you really should put the text in a <BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>to create a bit of a margin for improved readability (and verisimilitude.)

Sheldon "Positronic Brain" Brown
Code:
+---------------------------------------------------+
|  There are many humorous things in the world;     |
|  among them the white man's notion that he is     |
|  less savage than the other savages.--Mark Twain  |
+---------------------------------------------------+
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Old 01-18-06, 11:22 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by dolface
doesn't the crows-foot have a radial spoke in every set of 3 spokes?
Yep. I'm not a mechanic or a physicist, but in my opinion, the middle, straight pull spoke would be superfluous. I think only the strongest parts of the wheel actualy count.
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Old 01-18-06, 05:56 PM
  #48  
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Oh man got my hubs today. 36h HF NJS D/A HB-7600's (you all know those acronyms what that means which is just sad... I'm even sadder for using them...) I am so firm to lace these f*ckers. Damn you mail, why must you take so long with the rims!
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Old 01-18-06, 06:11 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Sheldon Brown
Pretty cute, but you really should put the text in a <BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>to create a bit of a margin for improved readability (and verisimilitude.)

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Old 01-18-06, 06:12 PM
  #50  
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^ are they 8mm 110's?
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