raygunner

In regards to those Japanese track frames that have 110 spacing are the hubs spaced 110mm x 8mm?

sashae

Yes, the axle is a 10mm axle with flats on either side, bringing it to 8mm.

raygunner

So when one of those Dura-Ace 110 hub sets pops up on eBay it'll work?

sashae

That is correct, DA 110 hubs are properly flatted to 8mm. Phil Wood's 110 hubs will also work because their axles are thinner, if you're waiting. DA 110 isn't -that- common

baxtefer

You can also get Suzue Promax NJS in 110x8
or cold set the stays to 120 and take a file to the fork ends.

sashae

Correct. Superbe Pros are available 110 spaced as well, and C-Record NJS will always be 110.

freddiesan

or do it like Tanabe-san in his Kalavinka shop

dolface

better to file the axles...

baxtefer

yeah, or that.
I'm pretty sure you can de-space most 120mm hubs to 110.

DA 7600's will require narrower cones though which is the rare part.

chicagoamdream

What kind of files do you guys recommend for axles/track ends?

I see dolface's point about filing the axles, but I'm more concerned with easily interchanging regular wheels with my non-NJS frame than I am with keeping the frame stock (or whatever). I guess I could just rotate the filed axles away from the flats when putting them on my other bikes?

baxtefer

11.4 had an excellent post about respacing/filing Keirin frames recently.
something about draw files.

nightfly

Can't Formula's be re-spaced down to 110?

11.4

Wow. Nice that someone reads my posts.

The filing is really easy if you do it with the right tools. Get a 12 or 14 inch drawfile from a local tool supply. These are really inexpensive files ($7-9 for a good one) that have the cutting edges only going in one direction instead of criss-crossing each other, and don't have any filing teeth on the edges (which keeps them from making gouges at the inside end of the slot. A drawfile is a specialty file that gives you a mirror-smooth flat surface while also taking off a lot of metal in a short period of time.

When you use it, it tends to want to slip sideways (that's part of what the criss-cross double cut pattern does for you, at the cost of a smooth surface). So just hold both ends (that's why you get a long one) and make long smooth strokes with a fair amount of pressure. Cut on one side of the slot or dropout only (I usually do the upper side because it usually has more metal to spare); otherwise you can end up filing one slot high and one low, and then your hub will never be aligned with the frame. Like any tool, it goes where you point it, which is to say you want to keep the faces of your slot flat and parallel. The file will be wide enough to do the entire length of the stay end at one time, and the file is long enough that you can run it through the other stay end to use as a guide to keep the filing even and flat. File away, and it'll take no more than 10 minutes per side, and more like 5 minutes.

You don't have to, but you can neaten up the closed (front) end of the stay end slot with a chainsaw file, which is about $2.50 and doesn't have a taper so it also will cut nice and evenly. Get a big one (they come in various diameters, and you want as big a one as you can find (usually 3/8" or 7 mm). A tool supply may not have them, but any place that sells chainsaws will have them (Home Depot has chainsaw files, but not drawfiles, at least where I live).

Both tools will last you forever. And it's worth it to get a couple wooden or plastic handles for them just to make them more comfortable to use. If you're like me, you keep acquiring frames and you'll need them again. The drawfile is also the best tool to clean up galling (gouging) on your stay ends brought on by torquing track nuts into the metal.

It's really easy and it isn't so quick that you make a big mistake doing it. Hope this helps.

11.4

Nightfly,

I've seen at least two different versions of Formulas that differ in the axle hardware. On one version, there's a 4-5 mm spacer on each side that you can ditch and presto, you have 110 mm. On the other, there's nothing to remove that isn't irreplaceable. But you can get replacement generic parts that are thinner from Bicycle Research (any good shop will have a parts box from them) and use them instead. This takes care of the actual spacing. Then you can either file the axle or file the stay end to get the 8 mm flats. Note that it's harder than it looks to file opposing sides of an axle with decent flats, so I recommend doing the stay ends instead.

And by the way, to another comment above, no matter how much you try to orient a flatted 110 axle in a pair of stay ends with 10 mm slots, it won't want to stay there. It tends to creep while tightening and you end up with a hub that's difficult to align in the slots. If you go to 110, plan to commit to matching stay ends and axles. Again, another reason to file out the frame and be done with it.

The milling that Tanabe-san did above is hard to do properly without a proper jig, such as you see mounted on top of the stay-end. I wouldn't suggest that you can do it easily or accurately without much more effort than it's worth, and this is not a jig that a local framebuilder is likely to have -- it's a unique thing that keirin frame builders construct for themselves.

chicagoamdream

Wow, 11.4, thanks much for all of that! Your posts continue to set the standard.

cogsci

couldn't you file out a 8mm place at a width of 110 and then cover that with spacers when the hub is spaced at 120? seems like it would be easy to do and allow you to use the same wheel on both 110 and 120.

11.4

Cogsci, that sounds like an intriguing idea. Don't make the notch any wider than necessary or it'll limit the amount of axle available to support the stay end in 120 mode. There's probably some concern about stress risers in the double-walled notch you describe, but in a cromoly axle that shouldn't be relevant given the stresses encountered in typical road fixie use. I'd suggest you get a $12 replacement cromoly axle from your LBS (you can get them from Bicycle Research or Wheels Mfg in standard solid track formats and threadings) so that if you don't like the result, you haven't blown a rather expensive NJS-labeled axle from Dura Ace, Suzue, or whomever. Also, while they're available and I recommend them for most applications, definitely don't get a stainless axle -- the stuff is very tough and doesn't file well at all, and it can also be brittle so your notching of the axle might be more fracture prone. Try it out and let us know how it works. Nice idea! I sure don't see offhand why it wouldn't do the trick.

bikejack

I'm pretty sure you can de-space most 120mm hubs to 110.


I'm pretty sure you'll have to watch your chainline and clearance on the stay.

dubteka

you probably could, but would still have to file the 10mm axel down to 8mm to fit the frame.

(* or PM me for a 110 spaced rear campy njs hub*)

breadbox

I've got a Keirin frame that appears to be slotted for 8mm threadings, and was planning on using Suntour Superbe Pro Hubs, which I believe (guessing, not in front of me) are 10mm. Is 11.4's filing solution relevant? I don't suppose it's possible to get new 8mm axles retrofitted to these hubs, is it? I'm imagining that would involve new cups & cones as well, so it wouldn't really work.
Otherwise, are the Phil's the stock solution?

pitboss

um, get a 110 axle (check with a cat named "Ichiban" on myspace) fitted into the Suntour hub. Someone here in Chicago had that very same thing done, chicagoamdream if I remember correctly.

breadbox

Yeah, I msg'd him on myspace about a 1/2 hour ago