:rolleyes:

Eh, I don't know. Riding about brakeless today, I did think it important to be at least MORE attentive. True, all in all, it ain't that different. But the brake does increase stopping time by a bit, it is a protective fallback. I don't know about all the hyper aware zen stuff, mostly seems tongue in cheek to me. But more aware, especially on descents where you could get carried away? Awareness makes a lot a sense then

That last point holds very true, though. "You'll be fine! have fun."

What is skipping?

gnarboots...i do agree that it's not that different. but at first, i started being more attentive, and it's become a part of my style moreso than before. i guess that's why i include it. cuz it's worked well for me. but you should be attentive, no matter what.

that said, i think stopping techniques sans brakes are just like braking, more or less. it's just that you have to get used to doing those techniques. skipping isn't easy at first (well, it was for me, but do a search). but once it is, it's just another way of stopping. the "technical" things come into play when learning and stick with you. otherwise, yeah, i'd mostly agree--i'd amend things slightly, to say that no brakes, one brake, freewheel two brakes, it's all the same once you get used to each one.

yeah, no sht. I mean, I know what it is, I even "know" how to do it, and while I haven't committed mad hours to learning, I can't quite get it. Skidding too. OK, go!

i got skipping before i got skidding. it was like i was trying to backpedal really hard, but the pedals were pushing my legs forward, so i ended up locking the pedals (and thus the wheel) up. at least for a bit, till the pedals whipped my legs into submission and kept moving forward. a half revolution later, same thing.

skidding is just the same, except not letting the pedals win, even for a moment.

also, i started pulling up on my front pedal just before it became level, as suggested by the wise serendipper.

Hey, guys, doesn't some brakeless dude feel like doing a little experiment? To determine how much shorter the stopping distance of a front-braker is compared to a brakeless demon's. The two guys ride side by side in a parking lot at the same speed, and a third claps his hands at a random point in time. They both stop as fast as they can. Repeat a couple of times and then tell us the result.

I'm really curious how things work out, but I don't have a brakeless buddy to test it with.

Ah, see, the brakeless rider DOESN'T NEED to stop as suddenly. They've got that mystical zen radar awareness going on. It's only the poor unenlightened brake-user that needs to screech to a halt in any sort of hurry, as they're typically too dumb to sense danger until it's already upon them.

No, really!

jim bob pretty much nailed it. i abandoned the realm of mortals the day i removed my brakes.

When I read the title of this thread my immediate reaction was to wonder why the hell ya need brake posts on a bike intended for brakeless

Re jim-bob: I should have added a lil' disclaimer like "I don't argue that anyone shoud use brakes etc. Ted Shred is cool with me as long as he doesn't hurt anyone else. I also realise that stopping distance is not necessarily closely related to safety of the particular rider. This is really just curiosity"

I am glad I had a brake yesterday as I stripped my cog off when some joker ran out in front of me. I managed to get around him and everything was fine but I was 5 miles from home and didn’t have to walk. Now I need a new hub :(

I don't know if Zen is the right terminology for it but there is absolutely no doubt that you must thing differently if you are riding without a brake. You can call it Zen or foo chuck-a-lucka but it's different.

That's what flip flop hubs are for! If something happened to my cog, I can flip it over and use the other side. The same goes for wrenches and condoms. I think...

i don't give a **** about "zen" or any such hippy bull****, but, i am extremely confident that a fully competent brakeless rider (not just some idiot who knows how to do balls-to-stem skids) can stop as effectively someone with a brake in collision-type situations that aren't caused by rider negligence. if you're going at a relatively high speed (say, 25mph/40kph) into an intersection and some enemaslurper going the other way takes a left turn right in front of you, you're ****ed, with or without brakes. any situation where you didn't have the distance/time to go around the left or veer right of the turning car is one where any remotely safe (non-endo) stopping technique isn't going to do the job. you're going to get ****ing blasted. techniques both brakeless and with brakes are going to become less effective as speed increases. when you are in lower speed situations (say, sub-15-18mph/24-29kph), the difference, if there is any, is only by maybe, maybe, a few feet (hockey stops combined with the proper seated skid will absolutely stop you as ****ing quickly) that aren't going to get you out of any wrecks that you didn't deserve to be in by being an idiot rider and not paying attention to all of your surroundings. i have cars veer into me on pretty much a daily basis. most of them would result in wrecks if i weren't on top of the fact that some cockswabber was coming up behind me and to the left. if you are damn good at riding brakeless, having a front brake is going to do little to nothing for you, aside from possibly making you careless about your riding.

i'm not even promoting riding without brakes over riding with them. if you aren't 100% comfortable without brakes, then you shouldn't be ****ing riding without them. slap on a front brake, and use it when you need to. anyone with a decently setup brake can stop as fast as anyone else with a brake -- that is, there is no skill to braking -- which is a damn good thing for someone just starting out. yeah, i rode with a brake for about 8 months after i got my first track bike. i'm glad that i did until i became very comfortable with stopping without one.

but, for you brake enthusiasts - don't step on a ****ing soapbox or play "safety school" with me or anyone else who rides without brakes. sure, you hear some brakeless elitism from time to time, but that's far far less obnoxious (yes, i find it obnoxious when people insist that everyone has to ride fixed without brakes to be cool) than people saying **** like, "oh you idiot brakeless riders -- you should put on a brake. you're just not safe and aren't going to be able to stop in time. a have a brake on every one of my bikes and never wreck. you stupid brakeless hipsters are going to die an early death." granted that fabricated quote is somewhat hyperbolic, but you see that sort of sentiment all of the time. the condescension is ****ing ridiculous and comes from people who don't know what the **** they're talking about.

i'd like to see a test of the sort that lofarkas is talking about, but the results would have very little to bear in real life traffic situations. it'd be fun, though.

Hey I know where you coming from in your overall post, but this quoted part is simply wrong. Using hand brakes to stop fast and in control in a variety of situations is a skill that can be improved upon.

Al

But skidding (kinetic friction) is the slowest way to stop an object. Thats why anti lock brakes were developed.
Al

S'funny. If brakeless was so damn dangerous why aren't we brakeless folk getting into more accidents than you braked *******?

Oh and I found our theme song. "No Brakes" by the Bravery.

i think i'd rather start riding with brakes than listen to the bravery.

I'm sorry, maybe I shouldn't have made this post, I mean, "It was an Honest Mistake".

i'll concede that to a certain degree, but it's not in the same league as brakeless techniques.

that was difficult to read.

I was very happy to have my brake on my way to work this morning. I was way too worn out to be able to stop without it, especially after some of the hills I had to do.

I'm up for the stopping comp, Shants.

As well as skipping.

yep, thats just what some folks just don't get, it not better or worse, just another style of riding.

Do you skip with microsecond pulses that are engaged just under the threshold of skidding?

(properly implemented (i.e. modern) ABS systems never let the wheels skid for maxium stopping distance)

Al