ooh...this is a fun one.

i spent twelve years of my life as a fundamentalist christian, even going to rainbow gatherings to try to convert wayward hippies. this was awful on many levels, not the least of which was holding hands in a giant circle at dusk everyday to say "ohm" and *****ting in a hole in the ground.

but i digress.

i agree with those who have said that making fun of christians falls under a different category. using jews and blacks as an example (i personally feel bigoted as a white person even using the term "blacks"...can we say african-american?) is tacky, and ignores the context in which we live. i think that people don't talk about privilege enough. luckily, peggy mcintosh went ahead and did it in this article:

http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac...Unpacking.html

in this country, christians are a privileged majority. while that might not be the case in china or north korea, most of the people posting here (for better or worse) are from the u.s. of a., and as such should probably think in terms of that cultural context.

that said, i also agree with zach s' assertion that not all christians are of the crazy fundy variety. i hope that's true of the gaansari folks, but i'm not informed enough to comment. i do know that a group i was involved with for a long time here in minneapolis would sometimes do relief work with the conveniently-unspoken intent of sharing the gospel with unbelievers. that always bothered me as it seemed rather conniving. again, i hope that's not the case with our bicycle friends. with any luck, they're more of the jim wallis/sojourners magazine/christian peacemaker teams/oscar romero type.

additionally, while it may be true that atheism is a statement of faith, isn't it also true that the word "atheist" as well as the notion that it is a statement of faith assume that faith is the norm? certainly if you are a spirtual or faith-having person, this might seem of little consequence to you, those of us who firmly believe that religion = mythology might feel differently about the terminology. how would christians feel about terms like "freethinker" and, more richly "afreethinker" or "non-freethinker" seeped into the vernacular?

finally: "One generations entitled oppresed become the next generations [sic] entitled oppressors"
-Vladimir Mitrotkin.

certainly the situation in palestine is a clear enough illustration of the above quote, but i wonder how it applies to african-americans, or asians?

and did brunop mean asians, or asian-americans?

Dude just because people may call them selves christians doesnt make them in the same boat at bush. it would be like calling you a hipster for riding a trackbike

Race != religion. Being jewish or christian is a choice a person makes. One of the primary features of a democratic society is that everything and anything (including choice) is open to debate, criticism, and even ridicule.

I don't think their religious disposition would keep me from buying from them, though. That wool stuff is pretty neat, and I don't really care enough about my white guilt to try to wash it away with petty consumer choices. Plus, if I extend that logic, I would have to stop eating and in n' out, and that's obviously not going to happen.

+1


+1

also not a christian.

I believe in the invisible divine Unicorn of Pinkness, and I appreciate that He observes the Earth from low orbit, subtly manipulating our society towards eternal pink happiness. Please don't make fun of me either!!

It's in his blog, on the Gaansari site. Bush-loving ******bag. Well, obviously I added the ******bag part.

But, like I said, very nice of him to help the Rwandans. That's more than Clinton ever did for them. And the prices, not bad.

What? What are you talking about? The Unicorn of Pinkness observes us from a high, geosynchronous orbit, changing his location relative to the earth on the date of each solstice or equinox. If I ever catch you spouting that nonsense, especially around kids, I honestly can't guarantee your safety.

Is thread gonna get moved ? Since Chimbley's post seemed much too benign for such an unreal backlash, I'll stir the pot.

It seems to me that lotsa Xtian folks like to play the victim. The whole persecution thing really bolsters their faith, for some reason. Perhaps it puts them closer to the experience Jesus had. What was that movie where he totally got the crap beat out of him?
How fragile is this religion that it cannot withstand jokes, teasing, or ( God forbid ) some criticism? Relax....smile......God loves you. Let's face it, there are alot of "Christian" leaders in our country right now whose actions do not match their rhetoric.They deserve our wrath, I say.If you are one of the "good" kind of Christian, then I still don't apologize. The energies you devote to the defense of your faith could be better used by speaking up and pointing out the hypocrisy within your own ranks. Lotsa work to do, quit wasting time on an internet bike forum.
While I think it's great that Gary ( Christian or not) is helping people in Rwanda, it's sometimes difficult for me to be unwary of those who need to profess their allegiance to a religion...............making sure that it's known where their inspiration stems from.Add to this the often twisted, tainted, ineffectual way that the help arrives. Check out our Africa AIDS work.
" We shall know them by their deeds"
Isn't it simply enough to do good things without having to quantify it?

I must note, however, that I have met Gary and his family and liked them very much. I had a hard time watching my language around their kids, but tried my damndest outta respect. If they had been whiny, petty, pushy, or self-righteous I might have acted differently, since my natural inclination is to be provacative.

I also used to be a screw up, and I still have screw up tendencies. I happily take credit for my personal evolution, rather than turning that power over to someone else. I do believe in God.I do not, however, feel the need for a middleman ( religion). It seems like a recipe for disaster.
" We swear on the Bible to uphold the Constitution, we do NOT use the Constitution to uphold the Bible"
Why am I up right now? God is bowling, and it woke me.
Rwanda? Too bad those with real power couldn't get their act together to help out here.

I think you meant to say "ruin the world"
Running up the National Debt cuz you don't care.....the second coming of Christ is nigh anyway.
Global warming? Hogwash. Science? It ain't in MY textbook.Too many to list, really.
Any sort of social, economic, or scientific advancements seem to be seriously threatened.
I saw a billboard today for a Christian radio station. "The Fish - Radio safe for the whole family". I wasn't aware that radio was dangerous.........aren't there bigger things to worry about than radio?
As I said earlier, Christians need to spend more time putting a better face on their religion.
Hatred, defensiveness, discrimination, and war.Lotsa war. Great track record.
Or, just bury your head further in the sand and just wait for Judgement Day. Safe for the whole family.

i'm a democrat. a massachusetts democrat. my senators, ted kennedy and john kerry are practicing christians. i did not vote for bush. i have never voted republican. but christians do "run" the country (the usa) and by extension the world. maybe not the right (from your or my point of view) christians, but professing christians nonetheless.

and if you want to say that one religion is "ruining" the world (which i don't really think you're saying), you could make a stronger (or at least as strong) case for islam.

the bigger question though is why there aren't more fixed gear cyclists runnin' things?!:)

hello can of worms.
sorry you got opened today.

+1 jasonsan. telling it like it is. except that part about politics. i have to say i feel there's a difference between people who view Christianity from a Leviticus-inspired hate-driven absolutism versus a liberation theology of brotherhood. you can't seriously lump the two together, ya know?

Brunop, Okay, I just noticed your Hell's Angels avatar. Hehehe :)
Yes, we need more cyclists running things. I agree
Since the folks who run this country, and, by extension, the world, are largely Christian, I will respectfully stand by my comment about them ruining it. They have the money and power to make a real difference, yet they do not. Oh......it's also a nice touch that "the other side" gets alot of funding from oil profits. We are essentially bankrolling our enemies. Why do you think you see so many SUVs with flag stickers on 'em? It's to offset the terrible , buried guilt they carry.;)


I think that Muslims may actually outnumber Christians in the world,btw.Yeah, I could rant about Muslims as well, but isn't it really about religion fueled conflict......from both sides?

Anyways.......nice talkin. take care

you too, Jason. always good to fuel (get it? ha ha!) a debate.

"IMHO, people who advertise their Christianity are foolish and deserve to made fun of"

Christianity is really nothing more than a set of beliefs, a way of life, and a community of people. What part of love, forgiveness, and community deserves ridicule?

Peace Out,

Steve

There are no atheists in foxholes

How about the part where people turn love and forgiveness into anti-gay furvor, and the part that is anti-choice (anti-woman) and pro-death penalty, and the part that is anti-choice yet anti-safe sex ed? I find all that pretty ridiculous.

... unless they're too poor or Black to have choices. Oh, wait, that's why 80% of the people in the military are there. So... where does religion enter into that?

Sounds to me like you're confusing the tenets of Christianity with the practices of some groups/extremists. Akin to blaming Islam for terrorism.

I'm not sure of your point, but I am sure that the poor and oppressed are (generally) quite faithful.

The part that doesn't respect the rights of others who have different beliefs. The part that knocks on my door to "save me" from me evil ways. the part that tells my children that they are going to hell because they don't believe in what you believe in, that romantic love is OK as long as it's between opposite genders. The part that says the right to life extends to unborn babies, but not to full grown soldiers, and a few other parts I've left out.

I don't have a problem with the basic tenets of Christianity. I do have a problem with the things some people do in the name of Jesus Christ. It is dangerous to generalize about an entire religion, but just as it's difficult to separate terrorists from our impression of Islam, it's difficult to separate our image of Christianity from many of the highly visible actions of many of it's adherents.

Great sale prices on bike parts huh?

+1 for liberation theology.

" it's difficult to separate our image of Christianity from many of the highly visible actions of many of it's adherents. "

So the highly visible actions of many (which I certainly admit exist), makes ridicule of all acceptable/tolerable. I just dont get it. Then again, I'm Christian.

Peace

When you quoted me you left out "It is dangerous to generalize about an entire religion"

"When you quoted me you left out "It is dangerous to generalize about an entire religion"

Sorry; my intention wasn't to misrepresent your position

My point is that not everyone that falls under the label of christian likes bush. Also if you dont agree with them isnt it better that they put their beliefs on the web site so you can make a choice where you spend your money?

I kind of glossed over the posts on the second page, but I strongly feel that religion should be kept out of the workplace. If I had to pray every morning at work or something I would not be happy. Since 'workplace' for gansaari is just a family bike shop, a few people and a webpage, its not nearly so bad, but it doesn't mean I agree with it. I'd just like to get the logic behind creating a christian (or any other religion) bike shop.. its not like bike parts for christians were unavailable beforehand... I can understand a jewish bakery or something as it has a specialized product, but what did rivendell offer that was actually supplemented by their religious background?

me neither. in fact, i really like the parts where whole people groups were either wiped out or sold into slavery for not believing the right way.

Betcha this this off-topic thread gets moved to P&R, where it belongs, then it degenerates into a "Koffee is a Nazi"-thread. I'll bet my entire paycheck on it. Any takers?