space_robots

trek has been saying that they have far-and-away the best carbon for years... and maybe they do, but I test rode a colnago c40 a few years ago (carbon tubes bonded to carbon lugs) and it blew my mind. Perhaps I'm biased. That and the geometry of the colnago was perfect.

12XU

What the ****? I work at a Gold level Trek dealer (not that it matters) and am a 20-something (like you, most likely) who knows only what he saw. I don't really check out Trek press releases and was essentially trying to convey that one fork failure in a competition does not mean that Trek's crazy good carbon is worthless. I had forgotten about the first crash which did cause the initial stress. If you are indeed that much older than me, why the crass ageism? Has the Sparks gotten to your head, oh aging hipster?

ChicagoDave

my side of the trek story: I rode over 30,000 miles on this Trek 5500 Frame before retiring it for sentimental value. I can attest to their strength as well as ride quality. I raced it from everything to French cobbles to urban-crits, and it never gave me problems. Despite all the flak trek gets on here and elsewhere for being "the" bike to have because of lance or whatever else, they are a reputable company who continues to pioneer carbon-fiber technology. I would ride a trek OCLV again anyday.



That being said, I eventually got bored and moved all my primo parts to my TT bike and made it into a road bike... it's a Giant TCR aero, which is basically aluminum compact frame - and I hate it. It's great for crits and was a good TT bike - but the old bike climbed and rode better all around.

12XU

The C-40 (and 50) are two quite expensive models almost in a league of their own, but I'd be willing to bet a monocoque frame is stiffer than one with lugs.

ImOnCrank

Who's first? Mods wanna judge?

12XU

What I've learned about bike frame metallurgy thusfar (discounting steel):


Ti
Advantages: Light and resistant to corrosion and scrapes.
Disadvantages: Often flexy compared to any other metal; benefits from a pairing with carbon (see: Lemond Tete de Course)

Aluminum
Advantages: Can be very stiff and also light (see: Any Klein and supposedly the sacred cow Cannondale track frames)
Disadvantages: Brittle, doesn't absorb many bumps

Carbon
Advantages: Extremely stiff, light, and shock absorbant (ex: OCLV)
Disadvantages: Brittle under certain forces, especially sharp impacts such as Hincapie's crash

Keep in mind though that Trek OCLV has no rider weight limit and a lifetime warranty. Bombproof?

wangster

12XU, you're an idiot or have been brainwashed by the Trek machine.

Sure Trek makes great bike, no doubt about that, but that doesn't mean nobody else can make great ones also. Sorry, to break it to you, not all treks are made in the USA and many company's taiwanese made frames are just as nice.

What proof do you have to be able to say that ALL motobecane made bikes sucks. Have you ridden any before? I challenge you to ride one of the immortal forces and say that it's a piece of sh*t frame. Taiwanese carbon are some of the best, sure not all, but if Giant and other companies are willing to put their name on these frames, I'd guess that not all are complete POS.

Sorry again to break it to ya, but made in USA doesn't mean quality, and Made In Taiwan doesn't mean POS either so before you just on the Trek/made in usa bandwagon, do some research.

EDIT: I can also say with ease that the motobecane carbon I have is as stiff as many other carbon frames that cost twice as much.

ZappCatt

I disagree on the Ti/Carbon pairing. One of the reasons I am interested in Ti is the bombproofness of it, would hate to "baby" it to protect the carbon bits. Yes I know LeMonds top of the line is that combo...

I also would point out that it was a metal steerer tube that broke on GH's bike, none of the carbon bits...so the carbon actually stood up better?

AfterThisNap

12XU, you write like an adolescent and only 14 year olds get so far sucked into marketing that they attack other people's rides, hence the assumption that you are in high school and your favorite film is The Fast and Furious.

Thank you for helping me reassess the value of my education here.

wangster

yeah, it was an aluminum steerer off a stock pilot and the going theory is that he fractured the steerer tube on a crash earlier and all the cobble stone just finally made it fail after a few hours.

They also think its because Hincapie chose to use a deep profile carbon aero rims that doesn't absorb shock as much and that might have contributed to the break. Who knows though, since he crashed at the begining, it could've been any material and it might still break.

All I'm sick of is this blind nationalism that all american made stuff is the best and that all taiwanese, chinese or whatever foreign made stuff is crap and overdue for failing...

Enough of this, OP asked what carbon frames are like and I already answered, which is that they can be very stiff while still absorbing road bumps very well.

I still wish I can try out that carbon gans well pro at trackstart to see how it feels compared to my 3rensho.

raygunner

Uh, yeah...maybe I'll just stick with steel....

12XU

Ok, I was misled by the Hincapie pictures and was wrong to call that guy a dumbass.

Wangster, I am more turned off by bikesdirect.com's warranty practice (none) than their product, although they are indeed faceless, rebranded whoknowswhatThaifactorytheycamefrom bikes. For a forum so intent on uniqueness in a bike, we sure have a lot of bikesdirect.com fans. Just look at any of bikesdirect.com's descriptions of the bikes they sell. They compare the bikes to superior, well-established brands and put highly-inflated MSRPs above "blow out" sale prices. If I were to run a web-only business out of a warehouse using rebranded frames, I'd no doubt be able to sell my product without a warranty at much lower prices than a bike shop. Sure, the higher-priced bikesdirect.com bikes have nice componentry, but putting Dura-Ace or Ultegra componentry on a mystery frame does not equate to a bike shop purchase with a manufacturer-backed warranty, a healthy sum going to the local tax base, a mechanic who knows my first and last name, etc.

DonPenguino

You just don't get it do you? The shops that make these aren't crappy little hole in the wall places, the machinery and crew needed is far too expensive for that. These are quality frames, and the reviews and longevity that they have shown through members on the road forum have developed a quality reputation for them.
As for the pricing, there's more than just a warranty that goes into frames. Since bikesdirect doesn't sell as many bikes as Trek they have to raise prices to account for the lower runs. There are a dozen more reasons why the price is higher, but that's just one example.
Finally, with the whole "supporting the local tax base" BS, do you have any idea how much of your money is going overseas (which you seem to despise) anyways? Tell me the shoes you're wearing, the car you drive (if you do), and your television manufacturer and I'll judge how rooted in the community you are.

wangster

Your right about the warranty, and I bought the bike knowing that I won't be able to count on the company if it breaks. I do think that the bike I have is unique because not many people have it exactly because of the reasons you stated and I have no problems with it and I'm more than happy with my purchase. I didn't buy from my lbs because they are mainly a repair shop and my other lbs are ******bags. Whatever my reasons are, I stand by my opinion that the motobecane bike is better than you think, and I think you'd be surprised at it if you took it for a ride. A good warranty does not equate a well made bike. Once again, nothing against trek and other large brands, but to get a bike of the quality I got from bikesdirect, I would've had to double my budget and I do think the high end BD bikes are pretty well made for the price point.

I'm just saying that warranty, sales tax, and brand name doesn't guarantee quality, and many if not most highend bike maker's flagship bikes are NOT made in USA.

12XU

Let's see here.

Regular Shoes: Red Wing--Made in Minnesota and bought from the shoe shop in town. I asked if he could make shoes for me, but he told me I'd have to go somewhere else (perhaps the NE or England). I told him I'd rather support the local guy.

Cycling Shoes:
Nike Altea 3--Probably made in China
Nike Poggio 3--ditto
I begrudgingly bought these because they're two of the best shoes on the market and I got a killer deal on both pairs. I'm not sure if they're made oveseas or what. I know the Nike Tete de Course jersey I bought was made in Italy, so it's quite possible these high-end shoes were also made in Europe and just branded Nike.

Bikes:
Mercian Super Vigorelli custom--Made in Derby, England via low-heat, hearth brazing
Trek 5200--Made in Wisconsin via expanding injection
Both were made by craftsmen and it's quite obvious. While neither of these purchases supported the local tax base, my purchase went to support highly respectable operations.

Car:
Acura Integra
I hardly drive it and it was purchased by my parents. It's only used for sparing trips home and to visit friends in other cities every few months.

As you can see, many of my purchases go against what I support. Why is that? Is it because globalization is making it so ****ing difficult to keep things local and well-intentioned or am I just not looking hard enough? Well, I've essentially curbed my spending on clothing, often buy local food, purchase high end bike parts which are made in humane conditions and by companies which are often active in local cycling communities, etc. I do my best to support what I love, yet everyone lives a life of hipocrisy, so I'm not afraid of being called one.

ravenmore

Well, for what its worth no one that I know of has seriously tested the Motobecane/Windsor/Mercier/Bikesdirect warranty. Every customer service issue I've had with them has been dealt with promptly and courteously. Their frames come from quality frame manufacturers in Taiwan. My Le Champ SL Road bike is made by Kinesis and shares a common link with Fuji Team SL bikes. The frame Wangster mentioned is also sold by Garneau. I don't think Garneau makes theirs either, but gets it from a Taiwanese manufacturer. Both Motobecane and Garneau reviewers say the same thing - that it is a very stiff and stable carbon frame.

BTW 12xu - for the record steel is actually a stiffer material than aluminum. FRAME STIFFNESS is a function, at least partially, of the diameter of the tubing. Because aluminum is so much more light weight than steel, they can make bigger diameter tubing out of it that still weighs the same or even less, thereby making the whole frame much stiffer. A steel frame with tubing the size of most aluminum frames would be soooo stiff you wouldn't want to get any where near it. It'd also be really heavy.

Oh, and I almost hate to admit it but I own one of the crappy "Motobecane Messenger" bikes. I've modified it quite a bit. The chain problems some have reported are mainly due to a two piece masterlink - if you put on a 3 piece its much more reliable. Everything else is nothing fancy at all - kind of bottom line but workman like. No flash but it gets the job done. Of course on mine I've switched out the handlebars, brake levers, saddle, and wheelset. Plan to replace the headset with a Chris King too at some point. I'll post a pic tomorrow for the hell of it.

BTW - I'm building a Scott Speedster up now. Scott doesn't make that frame either but gets it from a Taiwanese manufacturer. Beginning to see a trend here?

12xu - there's a poster in the Road forum called "Alanbikehouston". You should look him up and have a party.

ravenmore

Wangster - btw, your IF is smokin'. I normally love black but I have to admit the white IF definitely looks better to me.

Chimay

Dang, whole lot of hostility going on here.

OP, bad question. Too vague. It's like asking how two steel bikes ride. Dude with $300 Wally World bike repsonds vs. guy with custom Keirin frame. Pick a frame/manufacturer and ask more specific questions. Geez, I had an all carbon Argon 18 platinum. Quick as hell, no flex, but horrible geometry. High speed wobbles and no way of even thinking about riding hands free. Now, roadie is a Ti/carb bike (mostly carbon) and it's a dream on streets. Apples and oranges.

There's a lot of carbon out there. A ton of what comes out of China is the same bike repainted. Doesn't mean iy'ss a POS, just two different companies ordering and marketing them differently. Had a friend years ago that worked for Maidenform. The bra company. He told me the same thing they make and sell at high end department stores was the same thing they sold at Target for 1/3 the price. Guess what, so are a lot of carbon frames. That Motobecane may be essentialy the same frame as another company's bike that costs twice as much.

As to Trek, what can you say. One of their frames was under LA for 7 TdF wins. Mass produced, ugly, whatever. You think LA would've ridden something that "flexed too much, handled like *****, cracked, etc"??? Not saying all Treks are what LA rode, but the company obviously has some clue as to how to build a damn good carbon frame. And don't try to compare a 8k Madone against a 1k Trek whatever.

All frame materials are different. So is how they are built.

Lighten up Francis.

12XU

Believe me, my boss and I talk **** on bikesdirect.com enough that I don't need to have a circle jerk online regarding the topic. He attempted to contact both Windsor and bikesdirect.com about their warranty only to be bounced back between each of the companies. Windsor took over a week to respond to his e-mail and it was only a curt, "Contact our exclusive distributor, Bikesdirect.com."

And yes, I am beginning to see a trend in major American and European manufacturers getting their carbon frames from Taiwan. So is BRAIN, as they've created a lengthy sub-section for the past few issues on the topic of Taiwainese factories and their precise carbon frame building. There have been discussions at length on the framebuilder listserv about this topic among folks far more knowledgeable about the business than us. My boss has no doubt been talking it up on the NBDA listserv about it all as well.

I've yet to go to the Trek factory, but the fact that I can easily go take a tour there and speak to the designers of the frames as well as those on the factory line gives my OCLV frame an intimacy far greater than I'd experience with Taiwanese import X regardless of the quality of either.

12XU

And it may not seem like it, but I'm highly partial to handmade, simple track bikes. That's why I hardly ride my 5200 and why I don't ever post in the roadie forum.

ravenmore

Sorry for the hostility - knee jerk reaction from hearing Alanbikehouston rants and being the subject of his name calling. I'll play nice.

ChicagoDave

this really didn't have to turn into a name calling argument - the man asked a simple question... "Anyone ever ride a Carbon Fibe bike? Your thoughts please!"

just playing happy internet argument mediator... ~David

Chimay

Best post of this thread.

My road bike hasn't seen sunlight since I got my steel fixed gear.

Priorities.

vobopl

+1 on the C-40. I sold one and I can not stop crying.

marqueemoon

I've never ridden a carbon frame. I'm curious about the ride, but it seems like failure occurs pretty suddenly when it happens. I'm not that heavy but I'm not that light either. I'm also concerned about longevity. I could give a crap about a few grams if one frame will last a lifetime and another will be unsafe to ride in 10 years. I'm sure I'm full of it to some degree but I don't have somebody handing me a new frame for every season or every race either. New carbon frames are also downtube shifter-incompatible, and tend to have other "features" I hate like integrated headsets.

I will happily go ride one if anyone's really dying to know what I think of the actual ride though