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carbon fiber, 10 speed cassette, NJS looseball hubs

Singlespeed & Fixed Gear "I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailer? We are getting soft...As for me, give me a fixed gear!"-- Henri Desgrange (31 January 1865 - 16 August 1940)

carbon fiber, 10 speed cassette, NJS looseball hubs

Old 07-09-06, 10:08 PM
  #1  
treechunk
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carbon fiber, 10 speed cassette, NJS looseball hubs

Why?



It seems to me that it is FAR more important to become less reliant on oil by making utility cycling more attractive and feasible by offering parts (like 6 speed cassettes) that are more useful to more people.


I really hate the fact that the bicycling industry is driven by racing rather than utility. How many people really NEED any of the items listed in the heading of this thread?


I post this here because people like ourselves are going to be driving the direction that the bicycle industry goes in, from the inside or the outside, in the years to come, and I think the direction things should go should really be thought of more in terms of how durable/ low maintainence can this part be made rather than how light can we make it and still have it last one season.


I understand that racing is important to many people here, and that's fine. I'm not saying it shouldn't exist or saying it is a waste of time, I'm just saying the focus of manuacturers should be on dependable, reliable parts that are compatible with existing technology.
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Old 07-09-06, 10:18 PM
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i don't understand your point.

carbon, 10 speed groups, and njs hubs all exist for specific purposes, but so do lower number of speed bikes, including single speed bikes from many manufacturers, hybrids, city bikes, fat tire commuters, and all sorts of other practical stuff.

i'm sure most of the bikes sold in the world are cheap, utilitarian bikes. of course the flashy stuff gets press, but that's how it goes.

there's room for everyone.
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Old 07-09-06, 10:20 PM
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Get off your soapbox.

If you can still find dependable, reliable parts that work with your existing technology, I don't see what the problem is.

And last time I checked, the bicycle industry was driven by money, not decreased oil consumption.
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Old 07-10-06, 05:32 AM
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I only use sweet light crude on my bike. Makes it slide right through the air. By the way, only buy American.
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Old 07-10-06, 05:39 AM
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ear wax is the way to go, i've been saving it for a couple of weeks now in prep for a hub re-build
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Old 07-10-06, 10:12 AM
  #6  
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I mean, Treechunk is a pro and I'm not, but I have to say that for my money, the utility, durability, and value of the componentry that's out there is pretty much outstanding. Sure, there is high-end stuff with too much metal shaved off in the name of weight for its own good. But compared to 10, 20, or 30 years ago, the low-to-mid grade stuff that most people would use for "utility" cycling is just amazing. Take a look at the rivendell site; those guys value function and durability over froo-froo parts more than anybody out there, and they push 105 and basic Deore stuff with the attitude of "it's shimano, it's guaranteed to be totally fine." I'm not saying that there aren't crap parts and crap bikes out there, but the durability problem has pretty much been licked. I mean, it was pretty much licked with the invention of the Sturmey Archer AW -- here was a gearing system with enough bottom end to get up most road grades, and enough top to pedal down anything someone not out to shave seconds would want to pedal down, you could teach a monkey to maintain it, and they lasted forever and could be pro-rebuilt when they did wear out. It's descendents today are similarly outstanding; you can get a hybrid with a minimal-maintenance 7 speed internal hub, fenders, a rack, and all the goodies for well under $1000, including getting the wheels properly tensioned. I mean, I wish they were $50 and everyone could afford to buy one tomorrow and there would be no temptation to buy cheaper crap, but if the bus/train is going to be like $2, I don't have a problem with a bike that would provide basic, reliable transportation for years costing that much.

The two places I agree with the point here are marketing and cargo. The industry just isn't going to market utility, any more than Nike is going to market their cross trainers as perfect for lounging around the house playing video games, grocery runs, and the occasional home improvement project, even though that's what most people use them for. That's OK, there's nothing stopping us from using what's on the market for our own purposes, and I'm personally satisfied with the adaptability of most of what's out there. I'd of course love to see the wide range of utility bikes available here that you can buy in europe, but personally, looking at their designs, I'd rather put a little too much crap in my bag on the way home than pedal one off those lead sleds to the store.

As for cargo, as much as I love the handmade trailers that are on the market now, it's time for a change in the industry. The current offerings are all wonderful machines, but for their mechanical complexity and the materials that are in them, they are way overpriced. I'm not saying I want BOB or Burley out of business, but you can't show me one of those kiddie insta-tandems that sell for $150 and a $300 BOB with half as many components in the thing and no more metal and expect me to keep a straight face. Especially when the welds on the BOB look like poo -- seriously, get up close to one of those things and check out the welding; I'm sure it's perfectly strong, but it's not exactly the kind of craftsmanship you'd expect from something that costs 2x what it should. I know they cost what they do because of the small scale of the operation and uphill battle for distribution and all that, but I wish one of the 800 lb gorillas of the industry would partner up with one of the current companies and put some manufacturing muscle and economy of scale behind making a high-value trailer designed with urban hauling rather than touring in mind.
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Old 07-10-06, 12:55 PM
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It doesn't matter if the focus is on utility cyclnig or racing. The guy driving around in a $50,000 Escalade could have afforded a carbon fiber bike with a 10 speed cassette instead, no problem. He wanted an Escalade for 10x the money more.

You want utility cyclists? Convince people that they'll like it more than driving.

Really, how many people do you know that are saying, "You know, I'd ride my bike to work, but I can only buy a racing bike. I want a utility bike, so unitl I can get one of those, I'm driving"?
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Old 07-10-06, 01:03 PM
  #8  
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If you are refeering to the aftermarket part industry, i don't see why your complaining, you shouldn't need aftermarket parts if your a utilitarian rider.

If your refering to the greater bike market, well, companies that market themselves as preformance companies look better. One would assume that a company that consistently wins competitions would build the best bikes, even if your looking to buy a hybrid.

What company is going to market itself as, "Hi we are such and such bike company, we don't make awesome bikes, we make average bikes, for you, because your average and couldnt use a preformance bike if you wanted to."
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Old 07-10-06, 01:06 PM
  #9  
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You want utility cyclists? Convince people that they'll like it more than driving.
Convince them it's safer than driving.
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Old 07-10-06, 01:27 PM
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What I'm specifically talking about is that component manufacturers (i.e. Shimano) have pushed for more gears and less weight. a six-speed cassette that keeps the same spacing as the old six-speed stuff would allow stronger wheels with less dish, and a six speed cassette should be fine for utility purposes. also, six speed cogs and chains took MUCH more time to wear out than the current stuff does because they weren't afraid of making it heavy and durable.


Shimano isn't making 7 speed cassettes anymore, and I've heard talk that 8 speed is also on the way out of their manufacturing lines. That is what I mean by the industry being driven by racing rather than utility. We DO NOT need 10 speed cassettes.
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Old 07-10-06, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Pfutz
What company is going to market itself as, "Hi we are such and such bike company, we don't make awesome bikes, we make average bikes, for you, because your average and couldnt use a preformance bike if you wanted to."
I would buy a bike from those guys just for the humor factor.
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Old 07-10-06, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by treechunk
What I'm specifically talking about is that component manufacturers (i.e. Shimano) have pushed for more gears and less weight. a six-speed cassette that keeps the same spacing as the old six-speed stuff would allow stronger wheels with less dish, and a six speed cassette should be fine for utility purposes. also, six speed cogs and chains took MUCH more time to wear out than the current stuff does because they weren't afraid of making it heavy and durable.


Shimano isn't making 7 speed cassettes anymore, and I've heard talk that 8 speed is also on the way out of their manufacturing lines. That is what I mean by the industry being driven by racing rather than utility. We DO NOT need 10 speed cassettes.

You seem to forget that there are two almost completely seperate bike industries. I am willing to bet shimano still sells more 7speed freewheels then they do 10speed cassettes.

This other industry is what most people who need a utilitarian bike turn to and rightly so since it is set up to provide affordable bikes to the non-discriminating costumer.


I'm not sure what this has to do with ss/fg anyway.
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Old 07-10-06, 02:34 PM
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frou-frou, not froo-froo
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Old 07-10-06, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dutret
I'm not sure what this has to do with ss/fg anyway.
ding ding ding!
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Old 07-10-06, 02:46 PM
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Don't forget about the popularity of the "flat-footed" or semi-recumbent bikes that seem to be gaining in popularity. There is nothing on that bike that says "performance". they are ultra-cushy, heavy, comfortable, easy to ride bikes and they sell pretty well. I'm sure bike shops sell more of those than they do high end race bikes. Those of us on this community hardly represent the driving force of the bike industry. Most of us own specialty frames that are either custom built or at least 15 years old. Also, this community represents a small part of even the fixed gear world. In my town, i know there are at least a dozen fixed gear riders, and only 4 who post here. And the fixed gear mentality seems to be the most likely to search out a community forum. What i'm saying, in a nutshell, is that this community represents a very small percentage of a small group of riders who aren't buying the parts you are talking about. Except for the NJS hubs which are certainly not where the market is going. And if the racing industry promotes the development of strong, lightweight parts at a less expensive price, that technology is sure to move downward to the "utility bike" market. And if the 700,000 people who ride bikes in china can benefit from the technology, so can everybody else.
</end rant>
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Old 07-10-06, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by dutret
You seem to forget that there are two almost completely seperate bike industries. I am willing to bet shimano still sells more 7speed freewheels then they do 10speed cassettes.

This other industry is what most people who need a utilitarian bike turn to and rightly so since it is set up to provide affordable bikes to the non-discriminating costumer.


I'm not sure what this has to do with ss/fg anyway.
Are you talking about LBS vs. Megalomart, or Dura-Ace vs. hybrids with freewheels?

Edit: For those that don't think this belongs here, come on, it's not like we've never debated form vs. function, phil vs. formula, and other such issues on here.
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Old 07-10-06, 04:04 PM
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I'm confused with your fixation with 6 speed cassettes, as they don't even exist. (yet?)


8 speed isn't on it's way out, a quick browse of a few catalogs turns up a few options..7 speed casettes and chains are still easy to be found..and 7 speed fell out of fashion like, 10 years ago? Or more?
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Old 07-10-06, 04:16 PM
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OP is correct in his sentiment, but wrong in everything else.

The market is driven by what people want, mixed with what the businesses are able to tell you that you want. That leads to racing gear, because bicycles are TOYS in american culture.

If you want more people to ride, then make it the best option.
--Make fat people pay extra taxes
--Tax the hell out of gasoline
--Make most streets into bike-only routes
--Surface the streets properly
--Give tax breaks to the bicycle industry
--Make traffic offenses (by motor vehicles) punishable by public whipping
--Ban taxicabs and give pedicabs tax-exempt status
--Ban limousines
--Ban SUVs

Do only a few of the above things, and sales of utility bikes will soar.
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Old 07-10-06, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Pfutz
What company is going to market itself as, "Hi we are such and such bike company, we don't make awesome bikes, we make average bikes, for you, because your average and couldnt use a preformance bike if you wanted to."

Move to Europe, its all utitlity bikes there


Kronan bikes from Sweden pretty much are as you describe, they just don't go out and say it. Dependable, comfortable bikes made from gas pipes for point A to point B duties
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Old 07-10-06, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by treechunk
Why?



It seems to me that it is FAR more important to become less reliant on oil by making utility cycling more attractive and feasible by offering parts (like 6 speed cassettes) that are more useful to more people.


I really hate the fact that the bicycling industry is driven by racing rather than utility. How many people really NEED any of the items listed in the heading of this thread?


I post this here because people like ourselves are going to be driving the direction that the bicycle industry goes in, from the inside or the outside, in the years to come, and I think the direction things should go should really be thought of more in terms of how durable/ low maintainence can this part be made rather than how light can we make it and still have it last one season.


I understand that racing is important to many people here, and that's fine. I'm not saying it shouldn't exist or saying it is a waste of time, I'm just saying the focus of manuacturers should be on dependable, reliable parts that are compatible with existing technology.

There are two magic words that sell bikes. "Lighter" and "Faster".

Customer: "Why is the ZXL1 bike $300 more than the ZXL3?"
Bike Salesman: "Because of frame materials and componets."
Customer: "Huh?"
Bike Salesman: "The ZXL3 has Sora and the ZXL1 has Ultegra. The main difference being the...blah blah blah..."
Customer: "zzzzZZZZzzzz"
Bike Salesman: "...so the bike winds up being Lighter and therefore Faster."
Customer: "Oh! I see! I'll take the ZXL1, please."


Working in a bike shop, I watched it happen day in and day out.

C


Edit: Heck, I've even *tried* to sell customers the low-end bike that would easily meet their needs for $500 less. But, some just wanted the Lighter and Faster.
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Old 07-10-06, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Landgolier
Are you talking about LBS vs. Megalomart, or Dura-Ace vs. hybrids with freewheels?
I suppose Dura ace vs Megalomart but we could even go so far as to say Tiagra vs Megalomart. Look at people here for whom bikes are thier main method of transportation. Most of them use illmaintained cheap MTBs. Because that is the most cost effective easy solution. Look at other countries too its the same even places where people bike more. If you are riding rain and shine, not cleaning/adjusting the bike frequently and leaving it outside that is simply the best option. People don't want $400 hybrids because they will ride just as poorly as an $80 POS after a month or two since they aren;t going ot spend the time to take care of the bike anyway.

Having the right kinds of bikes is not going to make Americans who don't like biking ride to work. Its just simply not feasible for the vast majority of the population.
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Old 07-10-06, 04:30 PM
  #22  
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Old 07-10-06, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by BostonFixed
I'm confused with your fixation with 6 speed cassettes, as they don't even exist. (yet?)
This is news to me :-P
I have three 6-speed cassette hubs in my parts bin.
Not saying they're common or anything...
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Old 07-10-06, 05:02 PM
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Whoops, it looks like uniglide freehubs were available in a 6 speed version.. It also seems that there was a 5 speed uniglide cassette..aslo news to me. Maybe I should brush up on obsolete bicycle parts before I attempt to pwn anybody.

ps. welcome back ryan_c.
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Old 07-10-06, 07:35 PM
  #25  
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www.worksman.com

Lots of trikes which when you think about it are safer and more utilitarian than a bike. Comes w/ a basket in the back for hauling stuff, you can do no hands/feet trackstands all day long, etc. I wouldn't try shooting gaps in traffic w/ it, but we're talking utility, not speed and performance.

And no, I'm not a worksman shill.

[e]btw, I have a 6 speed cassette on my Altus equipped mtb and a Nexus Premium 7 speed may find it's way on my next bike.
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