F. Landis trains on a track bike so i bet he could with a proper map or if got to follow someone.

Juvi... learn to do them no handed.... like this

http://pasadenacyclery.com/images/li...andis_03_m.jpg

i'd say the average pro has handling skills that are well above normal. to me, the only disadvantage they would have is intimate knowledge of streets, shortcuts, that sort of thing.

I can't stand Nigel Mansell.

At least Schumi is out this year. I'm rootin' for Super Aguri!

When you ride as fast as the Pros, you don't need to know any shortcuts or memorize the traffic paterns. This thread is dumb.

Yes, it is. Better yet, it'll be back up in similar form within a month or two.

You can't go flat out through city traffic though.

You don't have to. Just follow the guy who knows the road best, and crush him in the last 100 meters or so.

Ever seen the domestiques drop back to the car for water then work their way back past 30 cars and 20 motorcycles with distracted drivers on narrow, winding roads with 15 full bottles in their pockets to rejoin the peloton?
I don't doubt their skill in traffic. I would doubt their motivation to push themselves the way we do in an alleycat.

The people I know of who do normal races and alleycats and finish near the top of each are CAT-4 racers

So far, the only explanation that I can find on this thread
for why messengers (or whomever) would beat the pros
is because apparently professional bike racers lack the
motivation to compete. I can't be the only one who finds
this reasoning completely specious, can I?

Does Flandis really use a track bike, or is it just his
regular road frame with a fixed rear wheel? I would
think that training on a bike with different geometery
than the one you plan to race on would be detrimental
in the long-run.

While I don't think the pro's lack any competetive drive, I do think it's unlikely that any of them would race in an alley cat to begin with because of the risk of injury. Would you throw away your career for an alley cat? I sure wouldn't.

Well duh.

Landis don't ride fixed.......

http://www.deraileduk.com/

"He didn't do it because he didn't have the right bike. Sounds like a massive excuse to us. But Landis got bucked off a track bike when he went to do a couple of laps of the track, which makes things better. Get used to riding fixed, Floyd, you'll be working as a bike messenger next year."

if you have to look at a map youve already lost

and you cant always follow someone because A) you might get dropped and B) they often split the field with multiple manifests or different heats

this is why messengers that are seasoned are way faster than rookies, riding fast isnt all that difficult, knowing where your going and traffic light timings etc have to be learned the hard way, by doing it, same with navigational skills----once you know basic navigational skills and how the adressing system works, it gets much easier

and I know both bike messengers and car couriers that never ever take the time to learn why the adressing system is the way it is, many just learn it by rote, in an alleycat if its set up well, that is a failing that will come out

If it adds anything to the argument...20odd years ago I rode a 60km training ride through MTL the day before the Grand Prix D'Ameriques with Thomas Durst of Panasonic/SportLife. I struck up a conversation with him as he left the hotel and ended up taking him to the bike path and riding him back. I was messing back then and had gravitated to the hotel where all the pros of the day were staying. During our ride he said he thought messengers were all bananas because of the speeds we rode in traffic...he said in racing everyone knows what they are doing and where they need to be for the most part. Interestingly he though that we spent just as much if not more time riding than he did, and he was completely blown away by riding in the snow..he full on thought that was insane. There would be not alot of handling differences between the messers or the racers I don't think as both groups tend to be pretty good after awhile or you simply wouldn't be doing it. As was posted above I can't see a pro racer even being allowed to enter a closed course Red Bull descent race, let alone a full traffic alleycat. If the racer didn't manage to get himself creamed, I think he'd be able to pull the sprint from the bag if he was close enough and the finish was visible just based on conditioning.

I think I figured out why the messengers would beat the pros:

because no one here is a pro.

I know a Cat-1 cross racer. He would literally kick the ass of any messenger in the city, except for himself when he was still a messenger. He was at a cross race racing against someone who rode in the Tour. He said he had him on dismounting and running with the bike, but as soon as they would hit the road, he would take off and win because he was just -that- fast.

I'm sorry, but go to a Pro race and watch them ride. They're fast. They get these bikes because they are really fast. They're so fast that they don't need to have the skills required for cross running. They're so fast that you'd be coming up with no Pro rules for your alleycats.

Sounds like your buddy has the best of both worlds as there are some racers out there that started out being messengers, here in Ontario we've got some track racers that started out messin'. Yes they are-that-fast, but add inattentive cagers to the race mix and you've got a whole different race format than fast-faster-fastest. Knowing the ins and outs of traffic could add up to a big advantage, IMHO. All this is a moot point if no ringers ever show up to try it. If they did I bet their team managers would be soiling themselves until they got the phone call from said racer saying he was home and all in one piece. :lol:

Sure would be fun to see.

horse cookies . i coudnt give a damn how fast you are as a pro . splitting cars and burning reds while racing isnt the same as a closed circuit race ...2 many factors make messengers better urban riders for obvious reasons and if you need to think about it than what can i say ? give me a 10 grand ride , a year to rip out inhuman drumstick legs a little bit of epo and whatever other drugs you can throw in the mix and ill tear those pros a new one .. and i can say this being a pro soccer player over in europe once upon a time .....couriers drink like scotsmen smoke like arabs fight like irishman and still pump out the quickness day in day out ...love watching the tour though and do respect the guys for the qualities ...but wake up to yourselves ...

I'm a *low* level road racer, and an ex-messenger. I've done well in road racing, and I've won a few alleycats. Forget pros...decent cat3 riders would smoke most messengers. Power counts.

you guy's know messengers are regular human beings right?

FTW