Track frames on the road
 

People seem to say that the "relaxed" road bike geometry is better for longer road riding than "twitchy" track geometry. However, unless I'm wrong, I think a lot of triathlon bikes have even steeper seat tube angles than track bikes do, and people ride triathlon bikes for pretty long distances on the road. What am I missing? The reason I ask, is that I have a surly steamroller with some pretty nice components, and sometime in the future I might like to get a nice used lugged track frame to use with some of my present stuff. I really like how the steamroller rides though. I don't want to end up with something that looks good but really doesn't ride well.

they have shallower headtubes for one even if they do have really steep seatubes.
they are not meant to be comfortable at all just aerodynamic and legal.

1. Tri bikes aren't really "comfortable"- they're not really a good bike to choose for an all day ride- they're fine for events, but I would not like to ride one regularly as a road bike.
2. Your steamroller has relaxed geometry- more road than track- unless you have an older brown one with a 1" threaded fork- which has steeper geometry than the others.

Stick with the Steamroller. Yeah, it depends on the bike, but track frames in general do not go well with longer road riding. I don't think the "twitchy" aspect is that bad to deal with, but if you're going to do 20 or 30 miles on a track bike, you might not like how you feel later. I guess it all depends. Yay for conversions.

Tri bikes are essentially time trial bikes. Nobody claims to be comfortable on them. They are built for aerodynamics and speed. Road bikes, while ranging in geometrical aggressiveness, are built for longer duration, climbing, speed, etc. They are more of an all-around racing machine.

most triathlons are not the ironman. sprint distance is 20km on the bike, olympic is 40 km and ITU long distance is 80 km. all much shorter than road races.

tri bikes are also set up to put the rider in a very aero (usually uncomfortable) position. reasons for this include (relatively) short distances, energy conservation for other legs, and the fact that in most amateur tris you're not allowed to draft and work as a team against the wind.

Aren't track and tri geometries also designed to be stiffer than road frames of the same materials? So even if you can handle riding hunched over, the road vibration gets to you.

Unless they've changed the regulations drastically since I raced, ITU regs are that there is no drafting. Back then, the 2 minute penalty could be dealt with in 2 ways:
1 - course judge took your race number and reported it to the timekeepers, who tacked 2 minutes onto your finish time.
2 - course judge could pull you for a 2 minute roadside, which meant losing momentum and standing around for 2 minutes twiddling your thumbs and watching people rip past you.

The steep ST angle on tri bikes not only puts you in a very aero position, but also puts you forward over the pedals more, prepping your legs for the run stage of the race.

Track bikes handle fine for the street and they ride decent IMHO
The only problem I have with most of them is there is very little tire clearance which keeps you from running a lot of different size tires

Just get a pursuit bike. They have much more relaxed geometry than a track bike. :D

A reasonable number or sprints now allow drafting but ban aerobars(or so I have been told, I haven't done one for a very long time)

Track bikes are awesome when the roads are really smooth, or for weaving through traffic or other obstacles. However, they are not optimal for long rides. I ride both my track bike and "relaxed" road bike on long rides and the difference is noticable. The steeper angles and shorter wheelbase of the track frame magnify the bumps and the handling is sketchier over road irregularities and as you get tired, especially when something happens, like when fast moving traffic squeezes you into a rough pothole-laden shoulder, or when you hit an unexpected patch of gravel at the bottom of a hill. Those situations suck with a track frame. I've noticed that I also have to concentrate harder when doing things like drinking from my water bottle at speed.
I still like riding my track bike long distances...if I wanted optimal I wouldn't be riding fixed would I? However, when the ride gets up into the 100 mile range, I'd much rather be on a road oriented bike.

Tri bikes also have pretty short top-tubes too. This is because you are on aero bars, and that makes putting your weight on the bars way more comfortable than if you were doing the same on non-aero-barred bike. Aero bars on a road bike will make you bend way the hell over, which is hard on your back, and your legs will still be going forward a bit. On a tri bike, your back isn't bent as much because the pedals aren't as far forward (steeper ST) and the aero bar thing makes carrying that weight on your arms that much easier.

Also remember that track bikes have a higher BB. No one likes clipping a pedal when going into a corner at speed. So, your frame will sit you higher, you will have lower bars, even lower drops, and the steep angles.
You're gonna love it.

I keep asking this question on occasion here, just to get opinions.

If you were going to build or buy complete a non-custom frame for 'performance' road use including extended riding and hill climbing what would you pick? I'd strongly prefer non-fixed position axle (i.e. track end or horizontal dropouts) vs. an eccentric hub and also if it had a relatively high BB.

Al

i regularly do 30 or so miles on my very track track bike, and don't have a problem at all, nor do i see why you would. long distance comfort is normally a function of saddle and bar height, rather than frame geometry

I like the so-called "twitchy" handling of track framesets.

I call it "agile."

Each head tube angle, fork rake and wheelbase combination has a unique sinusoidal path the front wheel follows, and then the rear wheel behind it.

High head tube angles, short rakes and short wheelbases mean agile, not twitchy. :)

My bike automatically threads its way through road debris with astounding precision.

Additionally, I can easily ride very slowly in a very small space, such as a parking lot, much to the amazement of my roadie friends.
Yes, they can do something similar on their road bikes, but they think I have some special skill because of the ease with which I ride slowly.
Not me.
My bike has "twitchy" handling.

Fighter aircraft, helicopters and track bikes have dynamic instability, or, agility.

Did I mention the agility of track bikes? :)

have to agree with that, same observations

my Schwinn road to fixed conversion for example has more relaxed tube angles and at slow speed its like trying to turn a truck around when doing small circles like when trying to do a 180 on a sidewalk for example, however, even at slower speeds it tracks quite straight and easily no handed, it would probably go quite far w/o a rider before it fell over, some of that is fork rake/trail, but some of that is frame geometry too

my track bike on the otherhand turns like your a surgeon using a scalpel, very precise, very tight turning and quick to turn in but other than that the ride quality is pretty close to any other road bike ive ridden

both bikes have roughly the same emasurements as far as rider position

both bikes have a BB height of about 11.5 inches, I just measured them to see(wasnt sure)

the track bike is shorter by about 3.5 inches

Ive done centuries on the schwinn, but not on the track bike yet, but I will later this year. Isnt any different than doing 60 miles a day slinging packages, heck, a flat century takes less time and energy.

Why not get a 70s or 80s racing frame and build it up as a fg or ss?

This is certainly an option.

Today is a sad day for me. Not so long after my post above about desiring a road oriented fixed gear frame/bike I rode home from work on my 1984 Centurion LeMans fixed gear conversion. I converted it in May 2005 and today after 7504mi on the way home from work the seat tube to bottom bracket lug cracked and fully separated. The frame died.

My interest in a new fixed gear bike has switched from casual to serious.

My heart wants a new frame. Finding a racing frame with horizontal dropouts is an option, but my heart desires new. But my mind tells me there are as many if not more compromises with new (limited road geometry) as there are difficulties with old. Custom is also an option. I know after these 7500mi that riding fixed gear is my love and am willing and wanting to do it right.

Al

A few months ago there were a couple of threads on path racers, a flavor of fixed gear bike that fits your needs.

And then there is the custom route. I myself have toyed with the idea of having Steve Rex build a custom modern path racer. It would have all-day riding geometry, fender and water bottle bosses, and track ends.

Sorry to hear about the demise of your old fixie but looking forward to hearing about your new bike!

The jamis sputnik is a nice bike. Reynolds 631 steel tubing, easton carbon fork, formula hubs, road geometry..

This bike is on my short list based on many other comments I've seen on BF and the manufacturers provided info. All I'd need is a fixed/fixed hub and a front brake. The front brake is easy, the fixed/fixed will require more labor.
Al

You also seem to be a good canidate for custom..but you probably already know that...
Just a custom frame would cost more than the sputnik complete..

http://www.salsacycles.com/07_frames_preview.html

Scroll down for the Caseroll. It doesn't even have totally atrocious paint like most of Salsa's. I'd love to build one of those up as a geared commutter, but I don't know the cost of the frame.