submicron

Yes, another one...

At any rate, I bought both of them new and the chainline is less than perfect. Based on what I've gathered, they were supposed to work together... I installed Phil BRS08 (108mm JIS spindle) with an offset such that the drive side is 1mm closer to the frame, and my front chainline still consistently measures 43.5-44mm instead of the "Holy Grail" of 42mm. I know I could adjust it even more, but I abhor asymmetry. The bike has tons of chainstay clearance remaining... I torqued the crank bolts according to Park Tools recommendations. Am I the only one with this problem? Would I be better served by BRS05? I don't like Sugino 75 BB, because based on my prior experience cup and cone BBs need perfect BB shell machining to work well, so it may be limited by the quality of the frame... Thanks!

gargiulo.mike

let the arguing begin

trons

just go get it chased if it worries you... this is your best bet if you can't handle a 1.5 mm difference in chainline. also go find the "sugino 75's are iso taper" thread

Retem

hey dude phils have an adjustable chainline

coelcanth

he knows he can move the bb inboard 1mm more but it will make him puke when he looks at it or something

(btw, before you make the chainline in front a perfect 42mm, double check the actual measurement in back... it's not always spot on, varies w/ cogs, etc.)

zerobug

Quoted for truth. Hubs and cogs don't always equal 42mm as well. Sheldon Brown has a good run down of actual hub and cog measurements but it's always best just to measure your own equipment to make sure.

submicron

As you aptly noticed, it’s mostly an aesthetic issue for me. I might as well be asking opinions about pink deep-V’s… My Sugino/Phil setup works well. It is very smooth and perfectly concentric. Visually the chainline looks straights, but measures 1-1.5mm off (front wider then back). I had some chain noise with this setup and Izumi ECO, but it’s completely quiet now with a bushingless KMC chain. The real issue is that I recently saw a Sugino 75 crank with a matching Sugino BB, and they mate together beautifully. The cups are much wider than Phil’s, so there is very little gap between the crank and the BB, which I find aesthetically pleasing. Sugino/Phil leaves a wider gap and more exposed spindle, which is to be expected with a BB intended for a wide variety of cranks…

BTW: I’m familiar with the JIS/ISO controversy over 75’s, and I’ve read all the posts, but JIS BRS08 was the BB recommended by two highly respected on-line retailers who carry both Sugino and Phil products…

At any rate, frame machining aside and assuming that there are no annoying clicks or loosening, cup-and-cone BB’s require more frequent maintenance. To get to the bearings at least one crank arm has to be removed. Can repeated removal and installation of a crank arm lead to its deformation? Will the crank arm end up closer to the BB shell over time resulting in some asymmetry? Phil spindle may not be a perfect match, but I won’t have to touch this setup for years…

I will probably shift the position of Phil BB at some point by another mm and try not to puke in the process. For all I know, human hip/leg bone structure may have more asymmetry than that, so it’s probably meaningless from the practical standpoint…

na975

why did u not just buy the sugino BB??

submicron

I was concerned about repeated removal and installation of crank arms required to maintain the bearings. Phil is practically maintenance free…

Ken Cox

I have the same Phil crank bearing, but with Stronglight cranks instead of Sugino's.

For chainline purposes, I have biased my Phil crank bearing about 1 or 2 mm to the right, and even looking closely at the bike and knowing about the bias, I can't see the bias.

Adjust the cups for chainline and forget about it.

Retem

sounds like someone wants a pretty bike to hang ont heir wall
sorry had to say it my khs has 2mm of left side bb cup sticking out because of the adjustable chain line it is my track rig but it is still beautiful and has good chainline

in other words just ride your damn bike
**** I wonder whats going to happen the first time you lock it up and give it a little scratch of ding

drewcifer

hes a perfectionist, so what?
also itd be great if somebody would answer his questions because i'm curious about these things as well.

piwonka

you're probably not gonna get an answer to his question because anyone with a phil BB probably just adjusted the cups a bit to get the chainline right and then considered it fine, done and right.

Retem

easy utilize the adjustable chainline until it is spot on that is all if there is a little left side cup sticking out so what it works if you wanted perfect asthetics you shoulda used the sg 75 or superlap bb instead of an after market part

btw I have had sugino bb's that have lasted 20-30yrs without any maintinance

tbrtbx

^^This is a pic BB. The bb is phil woods (dunno if jis/iso) and sugino 75 cranks. Notice how the cranks don't fit all the way onto the spindle? I don't like this, i want to file the crank-square-bit down a little so it will go on...

Retem

yeah thats not safe at all most square taper cranks don't go all the way up the taper but sure go ahead it might work and or you might break your cranks and die

tbrtbx

Isn't it safe? What do you recommend?

Retem

torquing the bolts down properly and riding the bike

tbrtbx

Oh, they are torqued down as hard as i can get them. I meant, do you have any tips or is there some kind of hack i can do to get it all the way down?

Offhoff

It blows my mind that people are this anal about the way their bikes look. Do the pedals go around? Then go outside and ride your bike.

tbrtbx

Man, i'm really sorry i blew your mind.

Won't happen again.

Retem

nah dude I would leave it alone there are plenty of cranks that have been replaced due to too much torque or someone trying to sink the entire taper into the arm now if it bothers you that much just get da and octalink

tbrtbx

Alright, cool.

Thanks.

submicron

This is my primary bike, and I ride it a lot (daily commute + weekend rides with geared guys). My bike has fenders, a rack, handlebar bag, various lights, etc. so it certainly does not conform to the aesthetic standard of a street track bike. But when it comes to mechanics, I am a little bit of a perfectionist. That’s why I upgraded the drivetrain in the first place. I like things to go smoothly and line up properly, especially if I spend as much as I did for Sugino 75's and Phil BB.

In fact, it’s not the gap but the spindle offset that bothers me a little. I'll move the BB by 1mm, and I'm sure it'll be fine. I appreciate your input.

OK, so I enjoy looking at my bike!!! I admit it! Go ahead, cast the first stone...

Retem

dude its just the last five people who were having the same issue with the exposed left hand cup and the assymetrical spindle were building up pretty bikes not daily rides
I will admit m track ride lookes pretty nice my street track ride looks pretty nice my beater looks like a beater and so on and so on I rotate bike like I do underwear but to each his own you should n't have any troubles with you bb it is just the phill assymetry that gets it every time