Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Singlespeed & Fixed Gear
Reload this Page >

Crow's Foot lacing

Notices
Singlespeed & Fixed Gear "I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailer? We are getting soft...As for me, give me a fixed gear!"-- Henri Desgrange (31 January 1865 - 16 August 1940)

Crow's Foot lacing

Old 06-24-07, 11:14 PM
  #1  
BoSoxYacht
Banned
Thread Starter
 
BoSoxYacht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: take your time, enjoy the scenery, it will be there when you get to it
Posts: 7,282

Bikes: 07 IRO BFGB fixed-gear, 07 Pedal Force RS

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Crow's Foot lacing

I thinking of having my rear wheel laced with a 32 spoke hybrid crow's foot pattern. Does anyone have any experience with this pattern,or the normal crow's foot pattern?
BoSoxYacht is offline  
Old 06-25-07, 12:13 AM
  #2  
el twe
crotchety young dude
 
el twe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SF, CA
Posts: 4,818

Bikes: IRO Angus; Casati Gold Line; Redline 925; '72 Schwinn Olympic Paramount

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'd rather have it up front.
__________________
Originally Posted by CardiacKid View Post
I explained that he could never pay me enough cash for the amount of work I had put into that bike and the only way to compensate me for it was to ride the hell out of it.
IRO Angus Casati Gold Line
el twe is offline  
Old 06-25-07, 12:25 AM
  #3  
Wil Davis
Curmudgeon
 
Wil Davis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Nausea, New Hamster
Posts: 1,572

Bikes: (see https://wildavis.smugmug.com/Bikes) Bianchi Veloce (2005), Nishiki Cascade (1992), Schwinn Super Sport (1983)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Yup, I've built 2 sets. One using 32 hole rims with hybrid crows foot lacing, and another set using 36 hole rims with regular crow's foot (3x) lacing; both designs from Roger Torre's site. For the rears, I used crow's foot (or hybrid crow's foot) on the drive side, and 2x on the non-drive side, and for the fronts I used crow's foot (or hybrid crow's foot) for both sides. I put some pics up a while ago, and could most probably dig them out again if you were interested.

The wheels were some of the easiest I've ever laced, and took very little time to true and bring up to tension.

- Wil
Wil Davis is offline  
Old 06-25-07, 07:30 AM
  #4  
BoSoxYacht
Banned
Thread Starter
 
BoSoxYacht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: take your time, enjoy the scenery, it will be there when you get to it
Posts: 7,282

Bikes: 07 IRO BFGB fixed-gear, 07 Pedal Force RS

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Wil Davis
Yup, I've built 2 sets. One using 32 hole rims with hybrid crows foot lacing, and another set using 36 hole rims with regular crow's foot (3x) lacing; both designs from Roger Torre's site. For the rears, I used crow's foot (or hybrid crow's foot) on the drive side, and 2x on the non-drive side, and for the fronts I used crow's foot (or hybrid crow's foot) for both sides. I put some pics up a while ago, and could most probably dig them out again if you were interested.

The wheels were some of the easiest I've ever laced, and took very little time to true and bring up to tension.

- Wil
do you remember what the title of the thread?
BoSoxYacht is offline  
Old 06-25-07, 09:05 AM
  #5  
I Like Peeing
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 849

Bikes: 1985 Pinarello Catena Lusso / 1983 Pinarello Montello / Raleigh Marathon / Camel Cigarettes conversion / 1957 Worksman cruiser / Puch 140 / Raleigh Grand Prix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I've built two sets of these as well. I dig the hybrid version over the overlapping version. I guess they phased this lacing out decades ago (due to its inferiority to 3 cross possibly?), but I have full confidence in riding on it. Easy to build and distinguishable, if that's what you're going for. Put one up front.
I Like Peeing is offline  
Old 06-25-07, 09:17 AM
  #6  
bryanp
....
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Philly
Posts: 157
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Are there spoke calcs for these types of patterns somewhere?
bryanp is offline  
Old 06-25-07, 10:26 AM
  #7  
Wil Davis
Curmudgeon
 
Wil Davis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Nausea, New Hamster
Posts: 1,572

Bikes: (see https://wildavis.smugmug.com/Bikes) Bianchi Veloce (2005), Nishiki Cascade (1992), Schwinn Super Sport (1983)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by BoSoxYacht
do you remember what the title of the thread?
I think it was this one.

As far as spoke calcs are concerned, the Robert Torre designs use radial (0x), 2x or 3x so any spoke calc program will suffice.

The spoke calculator I use is an Excel spreadsheet; I don't remember its source, but there's a link (https://www.damonrinard.com/) in one of the cells, which points to a page of many many links, so it might be hidden in there somewhere.

Good luck -

- Wil
Wil Davis is offline  
Old 06-25-07, 11:17 AM
  #8  
BoSoxYacht
Banned
Thread Starter
 
BoSoxYacht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: take your time, enjoy the scenery, it will be there when you get to it
Posts: 7,282

Bikes: 07 IRO BFGB fixed-gear, 07 Pedal Force RS

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks Wil, your photo's look great(are they B&W or color?).

I stumbled upon Roger Torre's website last night while looking for a 3L/3T pattern and thought the Crow's Foot Hybrid might work better, and be a little easier to lace.

This is from that website- "To lace with this hybrid, four spoke Crow's Foot pattern you need to use crossing spokes that are 2-cross length. You alternate lacing a Crow's Foot set of spokes with radial spoke, half the spokes are the crossing spokes and half are radial. This results in a wheel that has much better lateral strength than a conventional crossing pattern like a pure radial wheel, and also has the torque transfer qualities of a cross laced wheel. The best of both worlds, so to speak. I have used a lacing like this on my 32 spoke road bike rear wheel and found it to have the best riding qualities of any 32 spoke wheel I have ridden. Very high lateral strength and rock solid power transfer. The figure below shows a 32 spoke hub and partial rim laced with this hybrid pattern. "

That's why I was thinking of using it for the rear wheel.
BoSoxYacht is offline  
Old 06-25-07, 11:40 AM
  #9  
Wil Davis
Curmudgeon
 
Wil Davis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Nausea, New Hamster
Posts: 1,572

Bikes: (see https://wildavis.smugmug.com/Bikes) Bianchi Veloce (2005), Nishiki Cascade (1992), Schwinn Super Sport (1983)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by BoSoxYacht
snip…
That's why I was thinking of using it for the rear wheel.
That was my reasoning also; I'm running the 32 hole set on my Schwinn Super Sport at the moment, with the rear laced exactly as described above. I've done at least 500 miles with them so far; I even had a spill a week ago where I hit a root/bump and went sprawling; no damage to the bike apart from a broken mirror, and the wheels are still as true as when they were built. I lost a few square inches of skin, and broke my helmet, but at least the bike was unscathed.

- Wil

BTW the pics were in colour, but they were taken in my kitchen against a light floor and dark-brown cabinets, so that, along with the silver wheels makes for a very monochrome composition. However, if you look closely at the last picture you will see the red label on the tyre.
Wil Davis is offline  
Old 06-25-07, 11:42 AM
  #10  
I Like Peeing
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 849

Bikes: 1985 Pinarello Catena Lusso / 1983 Pinarello Montello / Raleigh Marathon / Camel Cigarettes conversion / 1957 Worksman cruiser / Puch 140 / Raleigh Grand Prix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by bryanp
Are there spoke calcs for these types of patterns somewhere?
Yes. https://www.bikeschool.com/spokes/ . Do your work for 2 cross, then do 1 cross (radial) for the other spokes.
I Like Peeing is offline  
Old 06-25-07, 11:42 AM
  #11  
I Like Peeing
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 849

Bikes: 1985 Pinarello Catena Lusso / 1983 Pinarello Montello / Raleigh Marathon / Camel Cigarettes conversion / 1957 Worksman cruiser / Puch 140 / Raleigh Grand Prix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Whoops, I mean 2 cross and zero cross (radial).
I Like Peeing is offline  
Old 06-25-07, 12:02 PM
  #12  
Wil Davis
Curmudgeon
 
Wil Davis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Nausea, New Hamster
Posts: 1,572

Bikes: (see https://wildavis.smugmug.com/Bikes) Bianchi Veloce (2005), Nishiki Cascade (1992), Schwinn Super Sport (1983)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
BTW: If you're thinking of using Robert Torre's designs, here are a couple of concerns which I had after I built my first set. I sent a note to him asking to clarify a couple of questions which I had.

Here's my e-mail and his response:


Hi Robert,

Many thanks for the lacing information on your web-site, a truly great resource for any wheel-builder.

I've just built a wheel using a Half Crow's-Foot pattern on a 32-hole rim and a small-flanged Shimano Ultegra hub. As per your instructions, I have all the radial spokes "heads-in" so that they come out over the flange, and the x2 spokes all are "heads-out" so they come out on the inside of the flange. Now, my problem is that I've not interlaced the spokes, for to do so with a small-flanged hub would cause such bending of the spokes as to be detrimental to the spoke and the hub, and I'm sure would compromise the integrity of the finished wheel.

I'm not sure I understand the implications as to the interlacing (or not) of the crossing spokes, in fact I don't think you address this anywhere on your site.

Comments/suggestions/help?

Thanks again for a great resource.

- Wil Davis
Hi Wil,

If I understand you right, when you talk about
"interlacing" the spokes I assume you mean crossing
the crossing pairs with the radial spokes.

I don't address this issue because the Crow's Foot
shouldn't be laced that way. I haven't read the page
in quite some time so I'm not real sure if I state
that anywhere, perhaps I should if I don't. The radial
spokes should be on the outside of the crossing pairs
at all times.

Since you laced the crossing spokes so they are all on
the inside of the hub they will have to be interlaced.
The radial spokes probably don't touch the crossing
spokes, which is normal for this lacing. One or two
might just touch due to tolerances of the rim and/or
build tension, but this is nothing to worry about.

I know that if you don't interlace a standard crossing
pattern, or the crossing pairs of a Crow's Foot
pattern when the crossing spokes are coming off
alternate sides of the flange, that will cause
problems. But that can't be the case the way you laced
the wheel. It sounds like your wheel will be just
fine.

Robert
Hi Robert,

Many thanks for the quick response. You've confirmed what I suspected, and I'm much more comfortable now pursuing Crow's Foot Lacing. I've just completed the rear for this set, again 32 holes, on a Shimano small-flanged hub. I've laced it x2 on the non-drive side, and x2 half-crow's foot on the drive side.

I must say that using this pattern has resulted in not only an easy job to lace, but the truing has been very easy; in fact the rear needed no additional dishing - it came out perfect first time, with ideal tension throughout the whole wheel.

Thanks again for the idea! I'm totally sold on it!

Regards -
- Wil
Wil Davis is offline  
Old 06-25-07, 07:29 PM
  #13  
coelcanth
hunter, gatherer
 
coelcanth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,183
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
i built a 9sp 36h rear wheel uusing hybrid crows foot pattern for an extra big dude that had problems with broken spokes.. the tension between drive and non-drive sides wasn't as close as i'd hoped but it was a big improvement over a conventional 3x wheel
coelcanth is offline  
Old 11-03-08, 05:37 PM
  #14  
Capt'nClever
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I recently used a hybrid 32 spoke "crows foot like" configuration (1 leading 3 crosss, 2 radial, 1 trailing 3 cross) on a full suspension downhill bike. So far so good.
Capt'nClever is offline  
Old 01-14-16, 03:02 PM
  #15  
Coco Hardi
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Wil Davis View Post
...both designs from Roger Torre's site....
...which seems to be down.

Hello people. This is my first post here. I am looking for help building a wheel. Lying around I have a new pair of Campagnolo hubs, rear 18 spoke on drive side, 9 spoke non-drive and the front 24 hole, drilled as a 32 hole with every 4th hole not drilled. It is supposed to be built as a campa G3 pattern.

Now I have the idea to drill the rear hub to turn in into a 36 hole hub (very easy to do) and lace the front to a 24 hole rim with crow's foot pattern.
The pattern on the hub would be the hybrid crow's foot, for a 32 hole hub. However what puzzles me too much as I am not too great with maths, is to determine the spoke length because on the rim, the angle would be different than if I'd lace the hub to a 32 hole rim.

Maybe Roger Torre would be able to solve this issue, but the site is down and I haven't been able to find an alternative. Are there here any bright minds that can help me, either with determining the spoke length or with contacting Mr. Torre?

Thanks a bunch,
Willem
Coco Hardi is offline  
Old 01-15-16, 07:17 PM
  #16  
Squirrelli
GONE~
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,747
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Wow zombie thread...

Originally Posted by Coco Hardi View Post
...the front 24 hole, drilled as a 32 hole with every 4th hole not drilled. It is supposed to be built as a campa G3 pattern...
Is there a specific reason you want to do this? Is it already drilled? The 24h front hub as is would lace up a regular crow's foot without the extra radial spoke.

Originally Posted by Coco Hardi View Post
Now I have the idea to drill the rear hub to turn in into a 36 hole hub
You're going to drill 9 more holes on the non-drive side? Not sure if it would be a good idea to do it.

I've done two sets of hybrid crow's foot on fixed gear hubs before, with hub flanges being the same diameter as well as same amount of holes on either sides. I mean you could actually do a crow's foot on both sides as is (18 ds, 9 nds) since they're both multiples of 3 but I'm not sure how good it would be to do it on an asymmetric rear hub.

But for a hybrid crow's foot lace, you'd need the same amount of radial and 2 cross length spokes on each side.

You might want to open up a new thread in the mechanic's section though.
Squirrelli is offline  
Old 01-15-16, 07:53 PM
  #17  
Scrodzilla
See you in Hell.
 
Scrodzilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South of Heaven
Posts: 26,047

Bikes: EAI Bare Knuckle, Dolan DB3 Prototype

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 626 Post(s)
Liked 79 Times in 43 Posts
@Squirrelli

Scrodzilla is offline  
Old 01-15-16, 11:47 PM
  #18  
Dannihilator
Still kicking.
 
Dannihilator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Annandale, New Jersey
Posts: 19,656

Bikes: Bike Count: Rising.

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 143 Post(s)
Liked 27 Times in 20 Posts
Please no zombie threads.
__________________
Appreciate the old bikes more than the new.
Dannihilator is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
gif4445
Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling
5
08-29-18 05:07 AM
Lars Halstrom
Road Cycling
11
04-18-14 07:25 PM
Squirrelli
Bicycle Mechanics
19
07-12-11 08:50 AM
radumas
Hybrid Bicycles
6
03-19-11 09:18 AM
grogoreo
Touring
10
12-30-09 12:37 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.