LeVel Hubs
 

I would like to find out how people's LeVel hubs have been working for them. Saw some threads that are a few years old...how have they been holding up? I'm looking to build up a 135mm spaced wheel and was thinking of going with a Surly hub. However, the LeVel design just makes so much more sense. I understand the drawbacks of the proprietary cogs and am looking for feedback on their durability. Particularly from people who ride in bad conditions on urban pot holed roads and are generally abusive. Thanks!

I bought mine a couple years ago when I got the devine inspiration to build the 'ultimate bike' - and spared no expense, (except for the frame, which is iro) and the crank set - which has roadie spacing. :P

Anyways, I am very happy with it.. it didn't explode on me or anything. I really don't know what else to say about it. I guess the only thing that could conceivably go wrong with it would be if the bearings went bad, but they are still good, they still roll smoothly after two years of all weather riding. I did have to tighten the screws that hold the cog on once or twice since I've had it, but that's about it.

I give it both thumbs up. :) :beer:

Think long and hard about the LeVeLs. The hubs are expenisve and the cogs are expensive and not as widely obtainable vs dura ace/campy track cogs.

I'd look into more generic bolt-on cog options (disc brake hubs). Drilling out cogs for that is going to be a lot easier than getting them machined with the level template if level goes out of business.

There've been a couple of threads about them here... dig them up.
Consensus seems to be that they're good but not nearly worth the price.

I'm a fan of bolting a drilled cog to a disk hub myself (there's also a thread or 2 about that).

Level promised to make a freewheel for the hub which wd have made the system more versatile than a disk bolt-on solution but they never managed to make one and it looks like they never will... and it wd have been sketchy anyway... proprietary=bad

I have sold several sets and they have been good, solid reliable hubs for everyone I have put on them. I have a rear on my bike and I like it. The whole proprietary cog thing has never really concerned me. They are well made from stainless, wear very well, and are available now. I have a bunch of cogs coming for myself and some customers just to have a nice range and a few spares for the future. Stock up from the start and replace your chain regularly so you don't wear them out prematurely. As to the flip-flop option, they are also available with a freewheel thread so you can use a standard freewheel.

Been discussed about 4 thousands times. Search, use it.

What he said. I decided to avoid the LeVel hubs - too proprietary.

^^^^BIAS ALERT!


In other words: $$$$$
And that right there is the problem with proprietary stuff: ONLY GOOD FOR THE SELLER and bad bad bad for the consumer.

levels are so unnecessary..

you nay-sayers seem to arguing around the question. i don't think anyone looking to buy them denies that they are proprietary. that argument seems lacks persuasiveness to me. if you are looking for an alternative to a threaded cog system -- which definitely has its faults in non-velodrome contexts (read: lots of backpressure and skidding) -- then you are going to have to go with something "non standard." new products that enter the market don't automatically achieve "standardized" status, as you might imagine.

the level system is significantly superior to disc bolt-on systems because the stresses are absorbed by the machined "knuckles" rather than the bolts themselves. in the case of level, the bolts only serve to counter the minor lateral stresses that one encounters. this is not to say that disc hub retrofits can't work quite well, but, to me, they are a kludge rather than a well thought out design.

that said, there are some potential downsides to the levels. for one, they are pretty heavy. that's the price you pay for the epic burliness of these things. the level guys do fixed mountain biking, so i imagine that this penalty is well worth the added strength and reliability. i would like to see level design a less epic version of the hubs that still uses the bolt on system but is a little more weight conscious. also, the small end chain line of the levels is 45mm. this'll put the cog out a little past most standard track setups, which usually run between 43-44 on the back end.*

* -- the 42.5 ideal track chainline almost never occurs on the rear end due to varying cog with and hub design.

OK shants, but how about this: what system is in use by track sprinter cyclists? The guys with the largest quads in cycling sports, to be more specific?

Right, but they're not skidding or otherwise applying big impulse forces to the cog, especially against the threading.

I don't know that I buy Shants' critique of the 6 bolt disc brake system versus the level splines. I'm not exactly a pro downhill MTB racer (unless hill bombing for beers counts), but as far as I know shearing bolts off is pretty rare on those systems, and locking up a disc brake puts larger forces on the rotor than anything buffered by muscle and knee cartilage ever will. Also, shearing the bolts is probably a good thing, as the next most likely failure mode would be catastrophic hub asplosion. Also, with the level system the hub splines taking the shearing force are Al while the cog is steel, which is not exactly teh recipe for durability, and again, has a pricey failure mode.

edit: it should also be noted that the first bike disc brake designs used a reverse thread lock ring like a track hub. Not surprisingly, these stripped out a lot, and the 6 bolt rotor system was developed to replace it.

exactly. you can ride safely on the track without a lock ring, frankly. hell, being stronger on a track just makes the cog tighter.

I will definitely admit that the 6 bolt system is likely sufficient and am comfortable with backing off a bit in the degree of my criticism of it, but I don't agree with your critique of the knuckles. Each of the three knuckles is quite thick and is about an inch long. You're not going to be shearing one off, especially with any forces distributed between three of them. One thing I really like about the knuckles is that, by taking rotational forces off of the bolts, the threaded bolts themselves only have to deal with the minimal lateral forces. Their only job is to keep the cog on. Given that I seriously cannot imagine a circumstance under which a knuckle would shear, I like the fact that I'll never end up with a sheared off bolt stuck in my hub. I hate dealing with those damn extraction sets.

basically - while the 6 bolt system probably won't be doing anyone harm, i think the level system is designed with more variables in mind.

Oh i'm not saying they're bad hubs. They're ****ing awesome hubs. Just be exactly sure that is what you want. It's not always about product technical superiority - the LeVeLs clearly have the superior design but hardly anyone knows about them.

It would be irresponsible to discuss the hubs longevity without at least considering that they may go out of business at any time. Even in a niche market, LeVeL is niche. I'll gladly eat my words in a year or twos time when LeVeL hubs become as common as Deep V's.

VHS vs Betamax anyone?

Here are a couple reviews: http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/revi...evel/index.htm

Anyways we're straying pretty far off the topic of the OP's original question anyways. He's just asking about the durability of the hub.

I doubt one of the knuckles would shear completely, but I do think they'd deform. It strikes me as not all that different from the Miche cog carrier, and those are steel on steel and they develop play. Also, I'm not sure I buy that the bolts are only getting lateral forces, if they're torqued down hard enough to do any good in that direction they're getting any front to back that's going on too.

I don't think it's a bad system per se, I just feel like it's a solution looking for a problem. I just worry that in 10 years it's going to be like any other jingus proprietary stuff that's going to be impossible to find and $$$ when you do (see also: 10 pitch, 151 chainrings, French thread anything), while ISO drilled cogs aren't going to be a big deal to get your hands on.

Also note the level hubs are CNC'ed. Dura ace NJS are spun. According to 11.4 they are equivalently strong with the added fact that the level hubs have to be heavier than the DA's for the same strength.

I'm not a machinist, but I thought that strength didn't depend much on whether something was spun or machined.

I'll eat my words whem more than only 1 company produces compatible hubs and cogs for them. I suspect I won't eat my words anytime soon.

the tolerances between the hub and cog are quite tight. if i didn't have side to side motion to deal with, i'd think the bolts to be unnecessary. i have two cogs for mine, so while i cannot be sure that all are equally tight, i suspect that they are. because the knuckles hold the cog pretty tightly, the bolts won't ever be subjected full forces. at worst case, i suppose that each bolt gets 1/5 of the total.

ISO drilled cogs aren't even remotely common - only one company that i know of has made them (feel free to correct me). i am inclined to suggest that instead of making that a standard, a system more akin to level's is the way to go. ISO cogs, right now, are just as proprietary as Level's offering. Just because you can ghetto-rig cogs to work with disc front hubs (or rear, i suppose), it doesn't mean that the proper long-term solution for threadless fixed gear setups is to go with a 6-bolt design. If i had the resources to start manufacturing hubs, I'd definitely talk to Scott at Level to get access to the specs. I think they really just need one more adherent in order to gain the popularity that they deserve.

The problem I have with everything you say is, you splurged moolah for a Level hub and two cogs. That's a LOT of money. You're tainted by cognitive dissonance - you simply have to defend your purchase.

Sorry, but your opinion is basically useless. I'll listen once you sell the Level stuff.

EDIT: went to see their prices, to refresh my memory. Level doesn't even make most of their money on the hub - but on the ridonkolously overpriced cogs and - wait for it - spacers! $42 for 120 or 135mm spacers - enjoy your hub!

What are the benefits of a Level or other high end hubs over a Formula for riding on the street? I just don't see it.

BTW, I own both Campy Pista and Formula wheelsets, so I've ridden high end wheels before.

Tight tolerances and stress-bearing knuckles or not, a couple of people have complained about bolts loosening and even strecthing (I have no idea how level managed to find such craptastic bolts, must have custom ordered them... the 3c bolts in the hardware store are better...)
The knuckles are not press fit like a sq taper crank so they don't really take over the stress, and 3 bolts are fewer than 6. The system is obviously plenty strong but not bombproof. IMHO 6 bolt is bombproof. Tighten all 6 with a regular multitool and done. There's just no way you'll generate enough torque to **** with 6 M5 bolts, not even with skidding and all that.

BTW, it's nice that they have a version w/ ss threads now. :thumbs up:

Again, it's a solid system solidly overpriced.

Superior design, form and function.. Praise Jeebus. :beer:

Exactly how is it superior in design and function? What are the benefits to the rider?