sugino cranks hierarchy?
 

i haven't found any websites that have more than one or two sugino cranksets in the same place, and the sugino website has a terrible layout and is confusing. i think i am about to order a crankset tomorrow, so... can anyone help me figure out the order in quality/price? and is there any difference between the sugino messenger, and the sugino rd?

from what i've been able to gather the hierarchy is something like:
XD < RD = messenger? < 75 < Grand Mighty

i think i'm about to buy the RD, unless the messenger is higher quality.

p.s. i don't want to make a new thread for this - any strong feelings for velocity (dyad or aero maybe), sun venus, or mavic cxp 33?

Messenger just comes with messenger ring, which is rather high quality.

Regarding the messenger ring.. I don't like mine. It's tough, thick, and heavy, but the teeth are shaped such that the valleys are flat (like \_/ vs. U kinda), so it's actually noisy. Only chainring I've ever had noise with (cogs are a different story). If you don't care about noise, it's one helluva chainring. Although I think you can only get it in 46 and 48T.

so i think i finally decided...

sugino rd (silver/165mm)
sugino bb (103mm)

velocity dyad (36 hole, 3X)
dimension hubs

any opinions?

the messenger crankarms come from the early RD2 mold, which appears to be free from the recent problems with the RD/RD2 where the 103 sugino BB doesn't work.

the zen messenger ring is plenty stiff, but it is a little noisy. it does come in more than 46 and 48 (i have 44) and may also be available in odd teeth. or you could try the CNC'd ring from FSA if you don't mind the huge logo.

err... crap. i was just about to order the RD with the 103 sugino BB today. why exactly doesn't it work? and are you sure??? any help is greatly appreciated - i need to figure this out!

i was really going for a silver/white color scheme for my grey crosscheck, but i can only get the messenger in black. grrr. whatever shall i do? i don't think i want to go to the dark side.

Anyone know anything about Sugino GPX's? http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/bik/427081014.html Looks like Suntour Superbe cranks, which I understand where made by Sugino? Anyone know the spindle taper?

I'm not sure all the "messenger" versions are from the pre-RD2 mold, that doesn't jive with the Sugino web site and some retailers I've seen.

The issue with RD2's is that the chainline is 45mm in the outer position when used with a 103 bottom bracket. Bottom brackets basically don't come any narrower than that, so the only way to use these cranks is to put the chainring in the inner position and run something like a 107 bottom bracket with maybe a mm or 2 of drive side spacers depending on how wide your cog/hub setup is and whether you're using their 1/8" rings (they're pretty thick, so moving them from outer to inner gives you like a 6.5mm change rather than the normal 5mm road double gap).

Some people think the 45mm chainline is no big deal, and run it as is. A Surly rep came on here a few weeks back and declared it to be "within specifications" if you run 8 speed chain. This is kind of a canard, as almost all 3/32" chain is 8 speed chain, while there's no such thing as 8 speed 1/8" chain, and the stock rings are 1/8". The messenger ring does come in 3/32", not sure if you get a choice if you buy the messenger crankset. Anyway, a 45mm chainline will work, but it will be loud and you will wear stuff out a little faster.

The XD is a very good crank, definitely as good as the RD which is to say good enough for anyone but hardcore track racers, and takes a normal bottom bracket (107mm JIS), but it's 110 so there aren't "track specific" chainrings for it. There are still plenty of options, though. The XD is a little hard to find in silver (except for the triple version, which probably won't work for SS because of the granny ring mounts), but the black ones are everywhere.

One off the peg option without going overkill (75's, Stronglight, Miche, Paul, etc...) is the new crank Ben's and Soma are doing, Ben's calls it Andel and Soma is selling it as their own. It's allegedly pretty good, and if you get the Ben's version it's under $100 with a chainring. It takes 144 rings, though, which are more available than they used to be, but still aren't as easy to get as 130 or 110. If I were building a bike today I'd probably shoot for a 130 square taper double from shimano or FSA, there are a million of these around now that people want 110 compact doubles and exotic bottom brackets, and you're never not going to be able to get good 130 chainrings. They're also probably going to come with a pretty good 42t ring, just get short stack bolts, move it to the outside, and you're golden. I prefer smaller chainrings whenever possible because you can use Dura Ace cogs, which are cheap, good, and easy to find.

There are a few other options of course, Pake, IRO, and some others. I don't know too much about any of them, and some are probably the same thing, the big issue is whether they come with a good, round chainring, or if you're going to need to drop another $30-50 to make them work well.

I love my IRO cranksets.

what tires are you planning on running? dyads are a touring/tandem/cross rim so they're designed to be beefy and to be run with wider tires.
If you want to run 23c's then you might want to consider using a narrower rim like any of the other rims in your list.

I would buy a prebuilt wheelset, unless you have a shop hookup wheelbuilding is a losing proposition money-wise, and if you haven't built a ton of wheels your first few sets aren't going to be bombproof.

Just go with a different crankset/bb, you will happy in the long run, even if you have to pay more. The 45chainline is not pretty.

is there a difference with the rd2's that say "sugino" on them compared to the ones with the crowned "S" on it? i got the ones with the crowned "S". will those give me a 42mm chainline with a 103 bb?

The way to tell is to look at the stamping (actually die marks but whatev) on the back, the RD2 will say RD2R on the R arm down near the spindle interface. Here are the graphics setups I'm pretty sure about, please post if you know of others or if this is wrong:

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.c...952_1968_50454

RD2, sold as a basic set, not the "messenger" setup, usually with a 48 or 46 1/8" ring. 45mm on 103.

http://www.universalcycles.com/image...arge/16827.jpg

Other current RD2, this is the graphics you'll find on the Messenger version, black version has the same logo screened in silver or white or whatever.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/r5000.jpg

RD-5000, hidden 5th bolt, totally awesome. 42mm on 103.

http://aebike.com/images/library/cat...50m/CR1019.jpg

RD48, this one I'm less sure about, I think they're 42mm on 103 but I may be wrong. Please reply if you have these, I'd also like to know what they're stamped on the back.

Man... **** Sugino with their low end bull****. If anyone wants to buy my RD2's with the matching BB, be my guest. I guess I'll get some Radius's.

yes yes, i know. these are going on a crosscheck, not a track frame. i want to be able to run fatties, and i won't go any lower than a 25c, which i know i can just barely get away with (the ertro is 18-622). i have 25's on an 18mm rim right now and it works ok, 26-28 might be better as a minimum.

and if anyone has any word on whether the RD48 can give a 42mm chainline i'd appreciate it.

Plz send unwanted RD cranks my way kthnx bai.

Seriously, I really do want another set of RD2's if anyone wants to ditch them.

looks like this
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.c...2_1963_4230310

on the back it says rd2r and under it tl

imo, that hidden 5th bolt would totally suck.

My 1980's RD's look like none of the pictures posted.

IMO that opinion totally sucks.

I have messengers and they do give a 45mm chainline

That being said, with a formula hub, surly cog, and wipperman chain there is minimal noise though you can hear it when I crank the **** out of it. Thus far (2 days) it hasn't jumped, but the first time it does I am going to put the setup on my SS and get some 75s

I'm running the XD on one of my MTBs, currently set up as fixed. It has taken a beating (literally, plenty of pedal strikes on rocks when running fixed on the trail). I bought it to replace a Race Face crank I broke. I'm not easy on equipment and I trust it. No problem running the triple ring version SS, my only complaint is the hidden 5th bolt which is a pain since you can't get a chainring bolt wrench in there. Small issue on an otherwise good crank for the money. You should be able to get silver ones through QBP with no problem.

you just flip it around backwards so unless you are using dual hex bolts it won't be an issue.

[QUOTE=riderx]my only complaint is the hidden 5th bolt which is a pain since you can't get a chainring bolt wrench in there{/QUOTE]

errr nevermind the only hidden bolt cranks I've used weren't this tight.