johnprolly

get dumb get dumb get dumb

xylophonecks

i think this should be settled by a race...

wheelie start optional.

manboy

This thread has made me 50% dumber.

Thanks a lot, jerks. Now I have to go back to college.

doofo

+1

TimArchy

Sorry Alex. I'm in Bangkok for the weekend. I'll give you some answers when I get back to a free computer.

nathbdp

If you're racing in an Alleycat, you're doing so to win, and it is not in your interest to increase risk of accidents--something that would kill your momentum. It's hard to discuss this in light of dutret's vast experience with street races, though. Apparently he is privy to the thuggish aspects of alleycat racing (bikers breaking people's property, running over pedestrians, und so weiter) that I, living in NYC for my entire life, have had nearly zero experience with. Sarcasm aside, I do admit that alleycats influence cyclists to do some stupid ****.

You will use the Monstertrack video as an example of the dangers of alleycat racing. I feel it is both a fine example of the norm and the extreme. It is selfish to put yourself in a situation that makes it relatively easy for someone to injure or kill you unintentionally. There is little regard for the stress or emotional damage that could be done to a driver who strikes a cyclist because he is riding in 45MPH+ traffic lanes across a bridge. Not to mention the larger risk in effecting a collision between automobiles as one tries to avoid running over some kid falling off his bike on a highway. It is the same as someone committing suicide by jumping in front of a train, do you think the train driver will not be phased by it? I should like to drive my car on a rail trail.

On the other hand, the Monstertrack video shows a lot of footage that is no different from ordinary city riding, albeit at a faster pace.

SamHouston

While many bike races don't start with sprints...I'm fairly certain that sprints almost always start with sprints?

Unless you had some rule about trying to appear casual and nonchalant on the start, maybe you could introduce a rule that required all racers to lean against a brick wall in a leather jacket, smoking a cigarette, one leg up all James Dean lookin, then stub out the cigarette, swing a leg over the bike and casually pull away, building up speed while controlling your breathing so as to maintain an unconcerned visage...

Or accept that there is an inherent risk in any competitive cycling event & that this is highlighted by the occasional mistake....

Hell, I once came off a "ski jump" style hill arrangement on a Norba course in louisiana. I didn't get to pre-ride cause of the long drive, I had no idea there was a 30 foot drop that rolled into a short vertical wall, right around the corner from a fast bit. I hit the turn hard and dropped into space, rolled into the base, hit the wall without pulling back, was flying through the air rear wheel where my head should have been, landed on the front wheel and managed to ignore the urge to brake, rode on the front wheel for 15 yards and eventually kicked the back wheel down, and continued on.

There were spectators all over that area cause of the jump formation there, first I got "Ooooooh" as in, "he's gonna die" but when I pulled it out of my butt and landed it I got cheers as in "look! he didn't die!".

I gave it a proper go on the second lap...not nearly so much cheering...they were there to see the spills

There is risk in racing, don't like risk, don't race, don't like being subjected to risk by others due to the -possibility- of a mishap, don't race and don't attend races.

**** happens?

to be honest I don't understand the argument here, what are you guys arguing about?

dblock

i agree w/ samhouston. quit your constant safety bob *****ing

koyman

I read through this whole thread hoping there'd be a comprehensive description of the accepted and professionally endorsed "best" or "proper" method for beginning a sprint.
Lean thusly, do that, pedal like so, etc.

Did I miss it? If not, I think that such a post would be a constructive and positive way to end this thread, one that has been marked by the bitter arguments and infighting that so often mar our little BFSSFG paradise.

For the record, I often pop little wheelies when starting the sprint towards the polo ball (sometimes called a "chukkar"). It's never intentional, always unwelcome, and wholly because of my insane amount of leg strength.

JellyMeetsJam

Found this in some other thread, thought it was apropriate:

bexley

The unlit smoke lets him balance.

kidtwisty

coupled with his green boating shoes, this man deserves to rule the cycling world.

dutret

This is about the best you're going to get. Little skips are normal for most people. pulling a wheelie is not and I still don't believe it wasn't intentional.

dutret

Actually intentionally crashing head on may slow you down but taking a chance that you might slam against something sideways and all those times you don't actually crash head on and you will ride faster. Take a chance on a light and you may come out ahead or you may not. Cut someone off cause you aren't or can't ride straight and they'll fall while you keep going. Purposely endanger someone so they won't ride next to you and you get an advantage over them.

I've witnessed all of this in alleycats. None of it is acceptable behavior. The problem is compounded because most of the jackasses riding don't know their own limits and yet still think they are "racing to win." **** them. A reasonable reminder to such people is in order.

TimArchy

As you've so often reminded others, including myself, don't talk about things you know nothing about. If you want to call my cycling history into question, you could do so in a less pejorative manner.

Of the 20 or so local alleycats I rode in our shared home city, I don't remember seeing you more than once or twice. Have you ridden alleycats in other cities to know that they are the same at those local races that you may have ridden in? In fact, I remember you posting at some point that you don't race alleycats for some reason or another. I call into question your vast knowledge of alleycat racing.

TimArchy

My personal feeling about the essence of an alleycat race is that there are as few rules as possible. Riders are responsible for themselves. You can be safe or unsafe. It's your choice. More rules I think would make for less fun (fun being the primary reason for racing). Rules enforcing safety would ruin the spirit of freedom in the race. I certainly would never institute a helmets mandatory rule. And I don't think I would participate in an alleycat that did (being a helmet wearer).

Riding beyond your ability is unsafe in many circumstances. But the only way to get better is to push your personal boundries.

I've never seen an instance where a rider intentionally put another in a dangerous situation to get an advantage. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. But those people are jerks.

Riders understand that alleycat racing is an inherently dangerous sport. I've never organized a race that forced riders to do anything dangerously illegal. There is always the choice to take a different route around a sketchy intersection, to put a brake on your bike, to wear a helmet, etc. It is the riders responsibility to do these things if they feel they should. Not the organizer's.

It is not the organizer's responsibility to look out for what is in the best interests of the city. Riders race and take actions of their own free will. If we were talking about crack or guns, it would be a different story. But as of yet, alleycats do not contribute to tens of thousands of deaths per year, nor are they highly addictive (this point can be argued).

Lastly, In the 5 years I've been riding in the city and racing alleycats, I've been hit by many cars and wrecked myself many times. I've never been injured by an unskilled rider.

doofo

its all fun and games until someone does a wheelie

dutret

fun fun fun. Many things can be a lot more fun if you disregard everyones interests but your own. Are you saying that alleycats aren't fun if you don't act like a self entitled piece of ****? I never once mentioned rules(they wouldn't be enforcible anyway) I mentioned reminding people that just because they are in a race they still need to act like decent human beings and think about the fun others are having.

This is simply not true. Your abilities will improve(albeit slower) if ride even if you only approach your bounderies without exceeding them.
Are you really suggesting that gaining alleycat skills is such a valuable thing that it is ok to risk others health and property while you push your limits around them?

So why not remind them not to be jerks?


You organize a race in which breaking laws and recklessly endangering the health and properties of others is rewarded. Just because you don't force anyone to do these things does not absolve you of responsibility for encouraging them to do so and then rewarding them when they do.

Assuming by the "interests of the city" we mean the interests of the population is it not always everyones responsibility to look out for the reasonable interests of others? Sure alleycats may not kill thousands but they do lead to property damage and injuries. Is this no concern to you because your enjoyment of putting them on is paramount to others reasonable interests? What makes organizing an alleycat different from any other action or do you think that one should only think of oneself unless the result is addiction or murder?


good for you. That doesn't mean there is no reason not to remind people to ride responsibly.

While it is true that I have only ridden in a few alleycats and never any in other towns the behavior of a certain segment of the participants in them combined with their general immaturity and self centeredness makes it pretty clear that generalizations are reasonable. Combine that with comments like these and it's clear that your "I'm not going to tell ******bags not be ******bags cause it would limit their fun" approach is unreasonable.

oceanfx

When I rode XC, I would accidentally wheelie all the goddamn time. Riding up a hill and using tons of torque, and leaning back so you still have rear wheel traction can make the front wheel come up really big. Same thing koyman's polo sprints. ANytime you need a lot of torque fast the front wheel is bound to come up--and if you're in a situation where you have to continue that torque, say, I dunno...because you were racing someone...then it's entirely possible that the front wheel would stay there if you maintain that torque long enough. What do you do when your front wheel comes up? You stop putting torque into the bike and put the front down. UNLESS it happens at a race. Then you keep accelerating, and it'll probably make your front wheel stay up a bit. That is, assuming this guy didn't want to lose.

And then if it wasn't accidental, then...who gives a ****? Wheelies are only dangerous....if you don't know how to wheeli. If he did a wheelie because he wanted to do a wheelie, then...it means he knows how to wheelie! I can't wheelie when I want to because I haven't practised it! If he can do it on command then he's got wheelies dialed. Just because you might not be comfortable on your back wheel doesn't mean that wheelies are inherently dangerous. Riding a bike is dangerous if you don't know how to do it.

And if he doens't know how to do wheelies properly? If he's just being a dick and trying on some crazy **** at the start of a sprint? Then still...who gives a ****? Either he loops out and comes off his bike/falls on hsi ass, or...what? He swerves into the other rider knocking him over at the start of a sprint, when they're not going fast? Well that would be gay, actually, and if anyone did that to me in a race I'd get mad and if anyone did that IN my race I would tell them to quit being unsafe.

But that's NOT what happened because no one got hurt! That's like pedestrians that get mad when you ALMOST hit them. How can you charge someone with ALMOST doing something?

doofo

the jackass hipster move that started this thread is a guy doing a wheelie at the start of an amateur sprint

its an amateur sprint

for fun

with willing participants

if someone is really being dangerous they could be talked to at the scene

this isnt that

dont abstract this into the moral issues surrounding alleycats

this isnt that either

dutret

It's not abstracting it's a change in the subject of a conversation. I didn't even bring up alleycats.

Pulling a wheelie that big is dangerous. In the picture he clearly can't hold his wheel straight. That means when he landed it there was a decent chance he wouldn't slam into the other rider.

All amateur races are for fun with willing participants. Just because someone accepts an inherent danger in an activity they're doing doesn't make it ok to ride beyond your ability and greatly increase that danger.

oceanfx

Really? Inherently? I don't think wheelies are dangerous to mountain bike and trials riders that have to perform the move all the time. It's just another part of their riding....hence wheelies are only dangerous if you don't know how to do them.

dutret

pulling a wheelie that big at the start of a sprint right next to someone is dangerous.

dutret

wheeling going up a hill on an mtb is completely different than doing so in the standing sprint on a road/track.

You don't need to lean back to keep traction.
You can't supply anywhere near as much torque.
You can't supply as much torque steadily.

Therefore if your wheel comes more then a couple inches of the ground or doesn't fall right back down you are either doing it intentionally or are incompetent. Just because you can wheelie doesn't mean it's cool to do so right next to someone or while accelerating quickly. More importantly just because you can get your wheel off the ground on command does not mean you are capable of controlling it once you do.

Many people can pull a wheelie. Very very few can do so while accelerating quickly past the initial impulse to get up. Even fewer can do so while keeping the bike under enough control to be safe a couple of feet from someone else.

Since you clearly have no experience whatsoever sprinting let me explain to you why it's dangerous. A standing start involved pulling/pushing hard on the bike. If someone hits you you're going to go down hard.

TimArchy

Alex, As well as I can remember, I've seen you at one street sprint competition (I organized a weekly sprint night for several months last year and the year before). Where does your vast knowledge base of street racing come from? Or are you simply making assumptions about street racing based on hearsay and spectator experiences?